Ep 1. Why your emotions matter to your dog with expert advice from Andrew Hale

  📍 Welcome to the Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily, the podcast for dog lovers, dog parents, and anyone who wants to deepen their connection with their four legged friends. I’m your host, Nathan Dunleavy, and I’m so excited to bring you our very first episode.

Today, I’m joined by Andrew Hale, a man who has truly revolutionized the way we think about dogs and their behavior.

Thanks We have a background in human psychology and he takes a unique approach that focuses not just on dogs but on the powerful emotional connection we share with them. It’s called dog centered care and trust me, it will change the way you see your relationship with your dog. In this conversation, Andy and I dive into the emotional rollercoaster of dog ownership.

We talk about why guilt, stress and even joy can shape how we interact with our dogs and how our understanding our own emotions can help us create a happier, healthier bond. Whether you’re a first time dog parent or you’ve been around dog for years, you’re going to take away so much from this chat. So grab a cup of tea, settle in, and let’s get started

 welcome to the very first episode of the Yappy Hour podcast, powered by Yappily. I’m your host, Nathan Dunleavy. I’m absolutely thrilled to be here today, although I’m a little bit nervous. Um, the Yappy Hour is all about helping dog owners, especially the newbies, navigate the wonderful, and sometimes difficult, chaotic world of dog ownership.

We’ll be covering everything from breed specific advice, to dealing with sensitive dogs, to the importance of early desensitization to things like the groomers and vet visits. We’ve got guests lined up to chat about everything from puppy training to the human side of dog ownership, because let’s be real, we’re all slightly obsessed, right?

To kick things off today, we’ve got such an incredible guest joining me. Uh, joining me today is Andrew Hale, someone who’s not only highly respected in the dog world, but also brings a fan, a fascinating perspective. Thanks to his background in human psychology. Andy is the founder of Dog Centred Care, which is all about understanding dogs as individual, and individuals, and meeting their unique needs with compassion.

But what’s really interesting is how Andy bridges the gap between human emotions and dog behaviour. Helping us as owners see how much our emotional worlds are connected to our dogs while we’re in. It’s a truly transformative approach that has inspired so many dog owners and professionals alike. Andy, thank you so much for being here with me today.

You’re my very first guest. So no pressure. How are you doing?

Yeah, I’m, I’m good. And thanks for having me, Nathan. And it’s a real joy, uh, to be here and an honor to be your first guest. So thank you for having me. Uh,

You’re most welcome. Um, firstly, Andrew, could you just tell us a little bit about yourself and your background, please? Yes.

yeah, so I’m a, I’m a certified behaviorist here in the UK, uh, live down in Devon with my husband and three wonderful doggies. And, um, we, uh, uh, we live on the, on the beach down here. So it’s a very nice place to live. So we have a very lovely life. Um, I’ve been working with dogs for, don’t know, about 15 years, I guess.

And, um, before that I’ve got a human. psychology and therapy background. Um, and, uh, everything’s kind of connected really for me, Nathan, because, uh, you know, as we’ll kind of unpack a little bit today, a lot of what I’ve always been interested in thinking about the individual’s lived experience, whether that’s the human or the dog or whatever. And so there’s a lot of crossovers. Um, uh, I’m the behavioral consultant for pet remedy. Um, and,

Yes.

a, You’re a partner with Pet Remedy and I love what we’re

I am.

Remedy because, you know, the, the company’s really thrown themselves into this notion of, supporting people’s understanding of emotional well being regardless of the species so pet remedy goes broader than dogs it looks at horses and cats and even reptiles i have the wonderful daniela beck doing work with us on reptiles so that’s the

Lovely.

connects in

Brilliant. Thank you so much. Um, Andy, I’d love to start with your journey. Um, how did your background in human psychology then lead you into the world of working with dogs? Um,

as far as uh I share this quite openly, but, um, I had, I had quite a tricky period in my thirties, I had a breakdown, uh, and a big one, uh, and there’s nothing like a breakdown, which, um, uh, invites you to. a lot of things, and it just goes to show you Nathan, I think you can know a lot of stuff about something, but it doesn’t mean you’re not immune to it, and that’s the difference between having an academic

Okay. very much.

So all these kinds of things make you think about things. And as it happens, um, the person that was involved in my own therapy, uh, and really supported me through that period. And it was two or three years of quite intense therapy, actually, Nathan. There’s, there’s a lot of things.

A lot of things on for

Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Um,

within zoo. Settings and it was just really interesting and I got

Silence. Yeah. Silence. Silence.

didn’t want to go back to the human stuff. Um,

Okay.

and then it’s just kind of built from there really.

Wow, that’s such a, it’s exciting journey, um, really interesting journey, um, how it sort of led you to where you are now. And it’s no longer a bit of a filler because, you know, you’re renowned within the dog, um, industry, dog professional industry. So it’s really great that, you know, how, where you’ve come from.

I think, you know, we all have a story, uh, Nathan, I think, I think it’s important to look at these things. And, and I do a lot of stuff for, um, supporting fellow colleagues with emotional health and all

You do it.

of working, I think I’m just about in the right place to offer something to others. Um, and I didn’t just take a time. I look back on these things and. Um, it’s been a journey for sure. And I think for me, there is two really important things for any that might be listening. This might be the case for anybody, I think. But first is our success is often built on the generosity of those around us. Uh, and I think back to people like Lisa Tenzin Dolmer, ICP, Sarah Fisher, for

Uh, Hello. Hello.

behavior, which is, well, just because we can change the behavior of another doesn’t mean that the other necessarily feels safer or whatever it is.

You know, we’re just getting compliance. And, uh, even through, uh, even if that’s just through positive means, we can unpack some of this for the caregivers listening, but, uh, in a bit, but, um, uh, and at the beginning, Nathan, I have to say I was kind of shut down on some of those conversations because.

Okay. Okay. Okay.

Um, and, um, I published an article of about five or six years ago now called Phantom of the Opera, and that went a little bit nuts.

And, um, for people who either loved it and people who didn’t, which is the nature of the beast. and then, um, people like Victoria Stilwell, who got me on her conference and her podcasts others who have just, Really put a lot of faith in me. This is the thing, Nathan, success comes through the generosity of others.

The second thing I think is recognizing when those doors open is to allow ourselves to go through them, which can be hard sometimes. My late father had a great saying, which I always think about, which is just turn up, turn up.

Yeah.

everything else falls into

Yeah.

Because if you don’t turn up Nathan, you’ll never find out.

And it’s hard. I find it hard. Some of the bigger picture stuff. Um, I find it quite challenging. Um, especially when you build a bit of a profile and stuff. And even now when I get to talk at conferences and things, it’s hard for me. I have to, you know, my poor husband, oh my god, he really gets it. Um, as

Yeah.

build up.

But we turn up anyway because we’re doing all this ultimately, Nathan, for the dogs.

Absolutely. Yeah. And another sort of, um, phrase is just to show up as well. Turn up, show up. It’s very, it’s very similar. Um, and yeah, my husband’s the same where I have to sort of, um, sort of run things past him and just get him to do me off a little bit. But, um, yeah, it’s great. You’ve got support there as well.

Yes,

think, uh, we could do with a little series on, um, interviewing. The partners, the people in the industry, I think, because bless them. They, have a tough time with it.

they do put up with a lot, that’s for sure. Right, okay, moving on, we’re going to have a look at the emotional side of dog ownership. Owning a dog for our guardians or dog owners or dog carers, whatever people like to call themselves. And just the human emotions of owning a dog and how psychology impacts that relationship.

Um, Owning a dog, um, isn’t just about training. It’s deeply emotional. Um, what would you say is the biggest emotional challenge you see dog owners facing today?

Things are, I think there’s a lot, I think this is, we know that within the professional world, there is a shift going on. There’s a movement, uh, as I said, a moment ago, you know, the move to positive training for me was, uh, was about moving on to do

Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Yeah.

Um, and for some reason in the last, I don’t know, 40 years or so, public have been convinced that the most important thing is to have a well trained, obedient dog. They are bombarded with all these different ways of doing it and all these different things. And, that’s what I call a task orientated outlook. They’ve been kind of stuck in this notion of tasks. Uh, and I think we owe the public a bit of a, an apology really, because whilst

Um, Um, Um,

do a recall, but they don’t know what stress looks like.

They don’t know about development stages. They don’t know about social processing. And

Um, Absolutely. Yep. Um, Yeah.

like. And it’s very hard for parents when you have a child who doesn’t fit that. it’s hard for them for the same with the dog owners, dog carers. Um, and, and you’re pulled in so many different directions. We all have our own. Our own conditioning and our own biases and our own history of whatever it is that makes us see the world we do. Um, and then we also feel societal pressure.

A lot of my clients, when I work with them, I specialize in, you know, What people might class as aggression, don’t know the term very much, but you know what that means. and a lot of these dogs are, are what people might call dangerous dogs. Uh, and there’s a lot of it there. And, um, a lot of expectational a lot of assumptions about what others expect from them. A lot of feelings of guilt and shame and embarrassment. There’s a lot of pressure there, I think. Um, and then the general public are seeing their dogs through the wrong lens. Because they’re constantly trying to get the dog to not do stuff or to do stuff without recognizing the animal’s ability to do stuff.

Mm. Uh, it’s, it’s about, um, more awareness, isn’t it? And education. Now we need, there needs to be this more sort of shift around making owners more educated. Things like canine body language and like you say, recognizing pain, et cetera. Mm-hmm.

because I think this is the key. think there is, I think many dogs are struggling with life a little bit, mainly because of awareness of those around them. Uh, and did think Nathan, um, up until, I don’t know, until maybe five or six years ago that we turned a bit of a corner with professional understanding and ethics and accountability.

And then I think something happened, especially with the kind of, um, explosion of social media during COVID, people turned to

Mm.

that side of things. Um, so it’s even harder for the general public, because it’s okay saying, well, we need more awareness, we need more education, but from who? How do the general public now, obviously, Yappily provide a great service, because they’re taking away a lot of, as much as we can do, um, the, the kind of, um, the roulette of that, because it’s hard, uh, But, but it is hard, Nathan, and a lot of people turn to social media and they turn to people on the telly. know, I mentioned Victoria earlier, um, she gets it right, but there are many people on telly who don’t. And they’re still talking about stuff that’s 30 years out of date and, um, and how they get on telly, I don’t know. But, um, ultimately though, this is that shift from tasks to care for me that we have to focus in on. The care orientated approach is just learning more about other first So I might have expectations about you if you were working for me or my dog or my husband Uh, and that’s fine because we have those you can’t not have that. Um, uh, but uh, if we’re not

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

a lot of these aversive methods are doing the opposite. They’re getting the task done because that’s the, you know, aversion really is the ultimate task at all costs, regardless of how you feel, you will do it, you will not do it. Uh, and lots of the general public are, um, kind of sucked into that because it seems like a bit of a quick fix. But what was that dog trying to communicate in the first place? And what do, what are we doing to that socially connected part of the brain? We are creating what they are creating. The professionals who are advocating this are creating insecure attachments with these people and their dogs. And it’s heartbreaking.

Yeah, it really is. Thank you for that. Andy. Um, my next question is around obviously human emotions, um, whether stress or frustration or even joy impact the way our dogs behave or respond to us.

Yeah, usually dogs are really, you know, dogs, dogs worked us out a long time ago, Nathan. They get it.

Um, Uh, Um, Uh, Um, Um, Uh huh.

get it. This is the irony. We’re supposed to be the more intelligent species. And yet we many people think they know about dogs.

In fact, they just know how to make dogs behave. There’s a big difference. Um, and, um, still learning a huge amount about what they’re trying to communicate. we have to move away from the thing is what we’re conditioned to this anyway, Nathan, because we’re all conditioned into it. What we call the good bad continuum when it comes to behavior that somehow behavior is good or bad we want to reward the good and punish the bad and that sounds so compelling that people don’t question it until you do question anything well that’s okay but who’s deciding what’s good or bad might say that your behavior is bad and I might say, well, I’m not having anything. You’ve got to stop it. But that’s no representation of what that behavior was actually being demonstrated from your point of view and the needs trying to communicate. And this is the key. So I think, um, so dogs are really on it when they understand this stuff. I think our emotional responses totally influence our behavior. Of course, because, um, you know, if we see, we call them conflict cycles. So when you think about it. If there’s just two of you, you and your dog, you’ve already got two nervous systems there. If you’ve got more dogs and if you’ve got more people in the family, you’ve got multiple nervous systems that are all trying to regulate, they’re all trying to feel safe. So if you have a misunderstanding, if that dog’s behavior triggers something in you and creates that kind of elevation in you, which triggers your response, which is anger and frustration, then you get to get stuck in that, in that kind of, um, conflict cycle. Uh, and I was

Oh,

I’ve shared this many times on different.

Things, but it was a pretty powerful thing for me. I work with a guy who used to, when his dog was barking at the dogs, he used to hit the dog with the end of this long leather lead he used to hit him on

gosh. Oh gosh.

um, I work in a way where, but me, I start off with thinking, you know, everything’s okay. Even if my judgy brain thinks, well, that isn’t okay. think, okay, that’s okay. Everything’s okay. I’m not here to judge. I’m here to stop you. And if I, if I started working with somebody straight away, pointing fingers at what they do, how do I build a safe connection to them? And the problem is, Nathan, I, sadly, I think there are some on the positive side, you do, who are a bit like that. Uh, and I totally get it.

Hello. and we’ll see you again soon. Um,

I’m getting into potential conflict with them, or they might not do it while I’m around. They’re not going to

Um, Yes, yes.

The caregiver has a lived experience of that dog through their lens, that particular lens, their own life experiences. So we’ve got to

Yeah.

somehow, otherwise we’re just giving them stuff to do, or they’re feeling judged or whatever.

Anyway, so I work with this guy, and by working in this way, when we were talking more about stuff, and I was available to his stuff, and he was sharing more with me emotionally, and we were able to see the dog through a different lens, he was able to say to me, that he now understood that the reason he was hitting his dog was because he was angry and embarrassed

Um, Mm.

for him and for me when he said it because I felt like crying when he said it because he was a really what I class a blokey bloke and I think him to be

No place.

and to come to that conclusion. It’s huge,

Mm.

so many when we see people in the moment, it’s really hard, Nathan, because our brain is designed to judge. We’re all when say, well, I don’t judge kind of line because we all do judge you can’t not because your brain has to make those judgments around the world around us to feel, does this feel safe or not?

So it’s always making judgments. What we have to learn is not, is to change our relationship with those children and not let them drive our responses. Um,

Silence. Silence.

with somebody, I genuinely believe we have to put some of those judgments behind us a little bit, because then we have to turn a

Yeah. Silence. Silence. Definitely. Definitely. Thank you. I’m often, um, my little saying is that we could all be, um, as humans, we could all be a bit more dog and be mindful because dogs very much live in the moment. And I just love that sort of analogy that we could just, let’s just take a leaf out their book and just sort of live in the moment and be more dog.

That would be amazing. That’d be lovely. I think the thing is for me, about emotions is, um, The most important to me is that everything’s okay to feel it. It’s okay to feel anything. It’s okay to make those judgments. It’s okay to whatever. It’s about how over time we come to peace with that. We come to peace with it.

We change our relationship. We change our relationship with our own trauma. come to peace with things that happened, maybe even 20 or 30 years ago, we come to peace with stuff. And I think, um, this is an important thing when working. this is why this topic is so huge, Nathan, so huge, you know, when people like Sindor, Sindor Pangal talks very deeply about this side of things and, um, traditionally with dogs, when we were in the task orientated, we were, Mindset, which is focus, compliance, uh, getting dogs to do

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. All right. Thanks for having us. All right. Okay.

do we as a professional. This is why I’m so on supporting professionals. With their own emotional, safety and health because, the term uses the range of safety, the dog has their physical, emotional, and social safety needs. So does the

Hello. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

just of dogs, but of the client too. Uh, so there’s a lot there for us to go into, but the good thing is we don’t have to necessarily go off and do a psychology degree or go off and do whatever else.

We just have to think about our own lived experiences. We

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

What we say about humans is that we all love to judge, but we all hate to be judged. It’s just been a bit more humble, I think that and giving ourselves, grace, because we all get it wrong all learning.

Yeah, absolutely. Um, Andy, my next question is, um, around obviously how caregivers feel guilt when they can’t meet their dog’s needs 24 seven. How can we reframe this mindset to create healthier relationships with our dogs?

Well, there’s, there’s two sides to that. The first is how we think about guilt. And the second is, Kind of which I will come back to that in a second second really kind of ties in with what everything we’ve been talking about Because you know the general public. Oh my god, they’re They have a relationship with their dog.

This is the beautiful thing about moving from task to care. Many people, when you meet them, they’re stuck in task. I must make my dog behave. I must get them to do this. I must get or not. But actually, um, majority of people I work with and the majority of people listening to do care about their dogs.

They care about them.

Absolutely. Yes. Yeah.

to get that dog, let’s say for example, I see these things, a house, a house training puppy in seven days, so why?

Why are we putting so much pressure on people to have that? We need to do the opposite. We need to give them permission to do less. It’s okay. You know, the wonderful, um, Nikki French with her, um, yeah. stop walking your dog book. It gives people permission to recognize you don’t have to do all this stuff.

You don’t have to take your dog out three times a day. You don’t have to do so. Uh, and, um, and I said, so I think we’ve got to empower caregivers to recognize that actually building that relationship, spending quality time being just being is okay. Um, dogs for me, it’s about the emancipation of dogs and the biggest freedom is to give them the freedom to behave. You know, um, and that doesn’t mean permission to just run amok, does mean that we can, they can just be dogs, right? They can behave and they can, they can behave in different ways. A lot of my clients, when I work with them, a lot of the pressures they put on them, uh, they’ve got are actually, they put on themselves and I have to release them and let them that’s not a big problem though, is it really?

Uh, the thing about guilt more generally, uh, is, is important because guilt can go one of two ways. And especially when people do get that level of awareness. So when we, when, when they realize, Oh, actually my dog isn’t being naughty. My dog isn’t being dominant. My dog isn’t being difficult. My dog hasn’t been challenging. Actually, my dog is stressed. Actually, my dog’s in pain. Actually, my dog is struggling. Actually, my dog’s just going through adolescence or whatever it is. They often feel guilt then because of what they’ve done in the past with the dog. And the thing with guilt is if we allow it to it, it keeps us chained to the past. And it’s a really

Yeah. Yeah.

very profound and actually allows them. learning experience, because it meant so much, that’s why it hurts, to drive their responses moving forwards. Uh, and then that way, with guilt, we can, we can accept guilt for what it is, which is an uncomfortable feeling about something that we feel that we’ve learned, or that we, you know, that we need to do, and we need to let it drive us forwards, because that breaks the chain to the past, then.

It stops us keeping. We can’t go back to the past, sadly. so we can just think, right. Sometimes I’ve learned something quite important here and that’s definitely the case with clients that have used certain tools, you know, that gentleman I was talking about earlier, you know, part of his process of coming through that was, was, once he had that realization, it’s like, wow, God, I feel really bad now

Mm.

because I,

Yeah.

dog,

Yeah. Mm-hmm

and my own embarrassment was what was driving my response, especially

Yeah, it’s, it’s about working with a dog that’s in front of you. Um, I think as, um, owners, we are conditioned to, we must walk our dog twice a day for an hour each day, but it’s actually okay to have a day off, um, you know, to have a rest and, um, and really less is more, and that’s really important, isn’t there?

when we

Mm-hmm.

of these animals lives. I, I think Um, we, we have the three A’s awareness, acknowledgement, acceptance. When we, we support somebody through awareness and then they, so that awareness of their dog’s struggling and they might not be dealing with that physically, emotionally, socially, whatever. And then when they acknowledge that, the acknowledgement is the sticking point for many people and that can be guilt. Guilt can be a big one that stops acknowledgement. But so in their own conditioning, Nathan, you know, the fact, um, I remember working with the lady going back. He was like, well, I get all this, but, um, like I say to my children, you can feel what you like.

Just don’t show it now

Yeah.

when she said that to me, I thought, wow, I wouldn’t want to be your kids, but, um, but that’s based on her own conditions. The point, Nathan, we’re all a unique combination of our own genetics, our own traumas, our own secure and insecure attachments, our own lived experiences, our own learning experiences.

And that’s how we perceive the world. And that’s how we see the world. But, um, if you get people through acknowledgement into acceptance, and now they accept the dog they have, they accept the situation they’re in, um, that actually unlocks the advocacy part of the brain. we see

Mm

with parents with human children, who have various, um, kind of challenges in life, and when they understand more, when they’re more aware of their child’s needs and condition, uh, and then when they acknowledge that and they, they accept it, now they can, they can advocate.

And the good thing about advocacy is, It’s a good shield to the judgments of others. Most of our problems, Nathan, many clients, many caregivers, guardians problems is the perceived, and I say perceived because we make assumptions sometimes because who knows what other people are thinking, but the perceived or the assumed judgments and expectations of others.

mm.

like neighbors and family or more or more widely society. we

Yeah.

actually, do you know what? I know my dog now and I’ve had some help from a professional and I get that they’re stressed and I get, they can’t do it. Even if the dog is behaving in a way that others might think, well, that’s bad behavior.

We now know what’s cause my dog’s struggling. And I don’t care what you think. Now I will do what’s best to support my dog. I remember working

Mm.

a couple who took on a, an ex puppy farm. breeding dog, a bitch.

Oh, wow.

And we all know what goes on at these places. And, uh,

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

dog was just not able to cope with the outside world at all.

And when I went to met them, highly, highly responsive to anything in the environment. And, uh, it was pretty clear to me that This dog had gone from horrendous places to this beautiful with this wonderful walled garden. was like some of those of, um, you kids adventure programs, you know, with the little gate at the end of the garden.

I think it was just beautiful.

oh, wow. Lovely.

to them,

Mm-hmm

walking this dog at all. That’s the plan. And they were really shocked by it. And this is comes back to Nick is amazing. But, uh, because they were like, well, we’ve got to take the dog out. I said, yeah, but your dog isn’t coping with it. And, uh, we’re going to just focus on not no walks, just being at home. And, you know, within about four to six weeks of doing hardly anything. The dog started playing more in the, uh, sat in

Yeah. Yeah.

um, uh, you know, every so often we revisit parts of the outside world, but the dog just isn’t going to get it. Now the approach might be, well, we must make the dog. Cope with the outside world. If you’re a good trainer, Andy, the dog should be able to. Well, yes, if I wanted to make the dog behave on the wall, I could probably make the dog behave when you think about it from that dog’s point of view. The dog was six. I think six years old. Only ever known the puppy farm, horrendous conditions, lived in, um, a little pen, no bigger than, you know, somebody’s, um, kind of utility room probably, now has this one, that dog’s world has literally got ten times bigger and it’s safe. What is wrong with for that particular dog? Why not? You know, I think my late mother had a great saying, which is, um, uh, there’s no, no absolutes, but kindness. We can, we can flip that a little bit with dogs to no, there’s no absolutes, but welfare.

Yes,

on that. Not, not us necessarily. I think we can all

brilliant.

own,

you.

uh,

my final question in this section, um, is around, obviously dog ownership comes with, um, society expectations, um, like having the perfect dog or being the idle owner. How can we stop comparing and then encouraging people to focus on our own We are.

Where we’ve all been the victim, is that the right word? that regardless, um, the dogs for sure. Um, you know, we’ve had a society where women should be seen, not heard. Children should be seen, not heard. Minorities should be seen, not heard. Dogs should be seen, not heard, right? I think we have to recognize that you and I are both from the LGBTQ community and feel it very deeply and I think this is the key I think we come back to what I was talking about earlier about breaking free of that good bad continuum notion and societal norms and pressures, we need to have rules in society, we do, we need to have boundaries in society, we do, they shouldn’t unmet need. And, um, you know, uh, and I both have husbands and then what’s crazy is what 60, 70 years ago, because of societal norms, we could have been in prison for it because of how we need to, because of our own social safety needs and how we, how we, how we need to feel safe in our loving relationship. So we have to just be mindful that the dog.

My big kind of focus is on social processing because, um, social species and feeling socially safe is crucial. uh, is not about what happens on the walk with the dog. It’s what happens in the house. It’s about that connection they have with the caregiver. we all know ourselves about the What happens when we feel unsafe in relationships when we feel we can’t communicate need when we and so many of these dogs, um, from a young age, actually, are finding it hard to communicate in a safe way. And it creates. Behavioral challenges, which then guess what? We now have to have a training option for, well, if, you know, for me, uh, that first 12 months of a young dog’s life has to be completely rethought we’re equipping the general public with, um, also how we go about working with reactivity and aggression has to be really rethought because you forget about punishment, uh, but even reinforcement, we have to understand the coercive potential of reinforcement. Just if we’re going into a situation where we’re already thinking, right, that dog’s behavior is the problem. Therefore we need to change it and we’re going to use food to get a different behavior. That’s fine. not if the dog still doesn’t feel safe and doesn’t feel relief for what they’re trying to communicate. We see exactly the same with humans. When I was working with humans and especially people with social anxieties, Most of them could pinpoint back to adolescence when they were forced into social situations they didn’t feel safe with. Now,

Yeah.

phrase I’m going to share with you now is one of the most damaging, we hear it all the time with children and we hear it with dogs. And the phrase is, well, they’ve got to learn. They’ve got to learn, right?

Yeah.

and it’s, and it’s said intention, there’s a saying, which is the path to coercion is often laid with good intention. Thing is, what do they learn? That child who’s forced to come down to be social, that child who’s forced to go to do things at school or go into, open changing rooms or, or whatever it is. many people do muddle through that, but do they learn to be more socially safe? I would argue most don’t. What they learn is to mask better. They learn to push the options to one side. They learn

Suppressing it.

suppressing it and they learn that if they don’t have a voice and it’s the same with dogs, you know, from the moment they come into our homes, we are just putting all this pressure on them to have to kind of do stuff.

So, so it’s hard. And this is why I think these conversations, we need to kind of, um, release the general public a little bit and, and move away from the usual discussions and arguments about methods and tools. Nathan, it’s about.

Yeah.

for the general public to see their dog differently to see their dog, how they kind of see them, actually, it’s just that they’ve been told that somehow the dog has to perform in a certain way.

Brilliant. Thank you, Andy. Our next session is all around, obviously, a dog centred approach. We’re going to dive into dog centred care and the balance of meeting the dog’s and the owner’s needs. So my first question for you is that your philosophy focuses on the dog experience. How does this approach also benefit the owner?

Well, it’s freeing, I think, is the best thing. The thing about task approach, because all your dog centered care, the That title, if you want to call it that,

I love that title.

taken it really from child centered care and patient centered care for, you know, because, uh, if we look at what’s happened in the past, I get a lot of my information, a lot of the stuff that I really get excited about. the progressive side of child educational psychology and development and then

Mmm.

we can pull over because, um, there are many of us who have been, um, further traumatized really by the attempts that others when we were younger to make us behave.

Mmm.

Um, and, uh, whether that, if you go back far enough, when you think about things like the Borstal system, when you think about how we used to treat people with neurodivergence, especially autism, how many, they’re adults now say that was even more traumatizing for me because I was being made to have to communicate in a certain way or made to have to do this. So, what happened in the human psychology side of things was we, there was this development of a child centered care approach. regardless

Um, Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh,

So that’s what I’ve tried to bring over as a vibe to dog centered care. Uh, and it’s not

Uh, Uh,

the dog as supreme. I think we have to recognize client in this as well, and the, and the humans, the same as the human, uh, the clients are humans too, but you know, the, the professional and that’s that right

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

my own, challenging relationships, my own ways to try and navigate the world and, and have so much stuff just suppressed all the time.

Um, Um, Um, Um, Um,

thing. I know, but I think if the general public learned more about this stuff, learned more about developmental stages, learned more about

Um, very much.

dogs

Lovely.

corrected all the time for just trying to communicate need. It’s stressful and I feel for them. I feel for them because they’re stuck in this cycle of not having very nice walks and it’s all real pressure. So actually I think understanding the dog to help people understand themselves and their own responses and where those responses come from. And, and it’s an invitation to do less. Ultimately, I think this is the key. You know, the, the so called high drive dogs in inverted commas that I work with, and I’ve worked with many, but it’s the Malaise, Malinois or the Belgian Shepherds, or the, you know, the kind of working breeds almost

Yeah. Okay. Okay.

social pain, social attachment, social processing. We learned from animals. The problem is back

Yeah.

uh, human ego was like, it wasn’t as interesting what we’ve learned about animals. Aren’t we special? But now I think behavioral science has gone full circle. Actually we can’t learn that from them. So maybe

Okay. I’m going to go ahead and interrupt the meeting. I’m going to ask that you please stand for the Pledge of Allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God,

on threads. It’s like, yeah, but you know, they love it when the shock color comes out or, you know, can’t be that bad because look at

Um,

and it’s,

that’s powerful.

powerful because they still want that connection, right? They still need that.

Yes.

And, uh, so yeah, I think, um, luckily my, my group, drug center care group, uh, Huge amount of caregivers in there. I call them expert caregivers. Many of them because they’ve done the train more, train more, train more stuff. Uh, and then they’ve realized actually I’ve gotta connect more.

I’ve gotta listen more. And the problem with the task oriented approach, Nathan, just looking at task. And, and, and if you do task, it doesn’t mean you don’t care, but the more task is to free and the less you can care, because obviously

Um, Mm. Mm.

But the problem isn’t the dog won’t do it. The problem is the dog couldn’t do it. And if we have a care approach, which can still be about tasks.

So, you know, I work as a consultant for some assistance dog. Organizations, which is the ultimate form of task, really, for me, because these dogs have a very important task to do. understanding now, if we want that dog to do that task when they really have to do it, they’re more likely to do it when they’re physically and emotionally well regulated.

It’s obvious. I’ve taught

Yeah.

you know, again, task oriented stuff. So, so this thing about care, all care

Mm.

is, I’m going to take the trouble to learn from the other first. How are you coping? What are you trying to communicate? And recognize that everything we ask a dog a request. I, I, it just has to be this notion of commands or even queues or whatever else. It is a request because we have to recognize what I’m going to ask you to know something now. need to be humble enough

Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence.

Relief is a really important concept, for me, uh, to find relief for it is they’re trying to communicate because for me, I think relief is one of the most important terms in the psychology of behavior, really, because when you feel stuff, especially when you feel the negative stuff, you will seek relief to not feel it. These challenging behaviors are just relief seeking behaviors. And if we’re just either shutting that behavior off by correcting, Or ignoring just trying to change behavior through punishment or reinforcement. It doesn’t matter, but not providing the relief for the animals trying to seek in the first place.

It’s really unfair. I

Definitely. Brilliant. Thank you. Um, my next question is how can owners better understand their dog’s unique personality and needs?

think it’s just a case of allowing that dog to give you the opportunity to show you.

Yeah.

that emancipation of dogs. Again, this thing about letting them behave. you know, this isn’t about, as I say, just free, free for all. It’s just, when I go out with my dogs, I, with their clients, I call, I call it supportive walking because I’m trying to support that dog’s nervous system on the wall. part of that process is just really slowing things down and just taking on board all the little things. What we tend to do is focus in on the big stuff. So we definitely know when the dog’s barking, lunging, pulling.

Hmm.

another kind of, uh, I don’t know. 23 hours of the day when they’re not. And this, they’ve got so much to tell us if we, uh, if we’re available to listen.

I think this is the key. So, um, just even just allowing ourselves just to watch our dogs and seeing what they do. And especially those times when the dog isn’t particularly elevated and they’re quite, They’re in a more kind of, um, stable kind of place, if you like. There’s still a huge amount there, you know, how does the dog process the environment?

How does the dog process me? How does the dog deal with mild stressors? What does that dog’s processing needs look like? How do they want to engage with the environment? When are they looking for exits? Processing engagements and exits are three really important things that we need to learn from the other, because those three things we know from humans and animals are key to feeling safe. What do you need to process in order to feel safe? Why can’t you process that right now? What is your history of processing that? What does that processing tell you through that kind of computer in your head? Engagement. How do you want to engage? Do you not want to engage? What’s your history of engagement? And definitely exits. You know, um,

Yeah.

so that’s tricky because remember emotions will find a way out. So, uh, so yeah, it’s just, it’s just a case of being. And. We don’t have to learn a lot about body language either.

I think learning about body language is really cool. Uh, but a lot of the stuff dog will just do because it’s their thing to do. Where the one,

They’re just being a dog.

being a dog, this is where wonderful Sarah Fisher comes in again and what she

Yeah.

us to do by looking at dogs. I highly recommend people look up Sarah Fisher, um, Animal Centred Education, Tilly Farm. Um,

Ace. Yeah. Yeah.

okay to think that’s the third time I’ve seen my dog do that. Uh, so maybe that’s the thing for my dog and that’s what I call a study of one. We can have a study of one. You don’t have to find a to support it. You don’t have to see it in a book or have seen it on telly. If you think, Oh, that’s interesting.

My dog keeps doing that in that situation. There’s a thing for that dog

Yeah. Brilliant. Love Sarah Fisher’s stuff and, um, who knows, we might be, you know, Getting her on the podcast at some point. So a little reveal there for all our listeners. Um, what I, I loved what you said about supported walking. I love that sort of term. Um, and what I took from that as well is it’s all about observation.

Observe, observe, observe. Brilliant.

think this is a thing about just being in the moment with our dogs and seeing everything as face feedback. You know, if I start to see a dog starting to pull more on the lead, that’s telling me that nervous system is elevating a bit more. all.

Yeah. Yeah.

and quite often, you know, so signs of elevation might be, uh, dogs neck up, Stiffness through the shoulders, pulling forwards, uh, zigzagging over here, over there, over there, you know, a very much kind of visually. Um, kind of, uh, uh, alerted to a lot of stuff. of decompression might be shaking off, sniffing the ground, staying to one thing, not pulling on the lead so much. A lot of that stuff comes from the dogs wanting to find places to ground. they need to ground a little bit. Like we need to ground sometimes. I mean, I just need a bit of time away. So all these things are really important. And, um, a lot of the time when I work with dogs who are, in adverted commas, reactive to other dogs, If we get that nervous system to be a bit less spicy anyway, then the dog is able to socially process better. Because social processing is hard, Nathan, if other things aren’t in the right order. So even think about yourself, if you’re not feeling very well, if you’re stressed already, um, if you’re, um, yeah, whatever. Uh, you’re more likely to avoid social interactions. even with your friends. If you see a friend in town, you’re more likely to avoid them because you don’t have the bandwidth

Yeah. Yeah.

So it’s the same for these doggies. So actually supporting that dog’s nervous system on the walk is our first port of call. use the bucket analogy, of course, a lot. Bucket there, I was stressed by, I can’t see on there.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Okay,

can process things well and allow sensory integration to happen.

While sensory integration is just how the brain takes on information through our sensory system, external and internal, and kind of makes sense of it. Pain, trauma, and stress are all big door closers. So the stress,

Yeah.

bucket and, um, the more water that’s in the bucket, the less doors we have open. Um, and

Yeah. Yeah.

first. It’s no point asking the dog to do loads of funky training stuff or to cope with the social environment.

It can’t because, um, you know, it has limited capacity to one thing to bear in mind when those doors start closing, guess what the first doors to start closing are often the doors we’ve put training behind because most of the

Yeah.

do has little intrinsic value to the dog, um, doors that are likely to stay open and the survival door.

Yeah.

have my learn support, teach mantra. Which is what dog center cares all about. Um, it’s not about not training. So we’ve been a bit down on training. Let me do this. It’s not about not training. We just got to recognize that a lot of the stuff we teach a dog, especially in that first six to 12 months, you know, the sit down, come stay stuff. It’s fine from a community point of view, but it has little internal value to the dog. We just doing stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

she had tons to tell me, even as a puppy, so learn from the dog first, support what we’ve learned, and then if we’re going to teach anything, teach things initially, that are likely to be intrinsically valuable to the dog for their own safety. Needs, then you can do what you like. And if you think about

Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay.

my dog. But do you really though, do you trust them to behave? Do you trust them to let you know stuff? Even if you might feel that behavior is bad, naughty, difficult, challenging, to recognize that that’s how I feel about it, but there is a need that my dog’s trying to communicate. So learn, support, teach. I think you can’t go far wrong if you think about it in those ways. And then after that, you can take

Can you hear me? very much.

a lot of funky stuff But that’s the point. We want to have a dog that we can go out to different places and they can cope with stuff. And if they feel under a bit of social pressure, their thought is, you know, I know I can exit now. I don’t, I don’t have to

Yeah,

go. These are, these are

yeah,

important life lessons for a dog, I think.

definitely. I’m very big on sort of being your dog superhero, advocating for your dog.

Well, yeah.

Um,

And most people want to be Nathan. I think they would love to. But like we said, right at the beginning of the hour. It’s a bit, it’s only a lack of awareness that’s holding people back and the

that’s it.

avalanche of information that’s out there with people arguing

Yeah. It’s a minefield.

There is a difference between understanding truly our dog’s behavior and just trying to make them behave. I think when people

That’s it.

that difference, it frees them.

Definitely. Thank you, Andy. We’re going to move on to our next section, which is all about practical advice for, for dog parents, dog owners, dog ownerships, and just some tips really for our listeners. Um, so I’ve got a couple of questions here. Um, so for someone that’s feeling overwhelmed or unsure about their role as a dog parent, what’s one simple change they can make today?

I think we covered it earlier a little bit. Do less,

Yeah.

less.

Less,

Uh, and think about,

less, less is more.

is more. Think about where those pressures come from. So, when we think about, this is, this is a good kind of thing for anything in life, whether it’s business, family, or our relationship with our dogs. We think about the must do’s, what we feel we must do with our dog. we think about what we have to do. And then we think about what we want to do. But if we really think about them, a lot of the must do’s, they’re not really musts, they’re the pressures from others.

Yeah.

so they should be going down into the have to do’s and then we have to think, okay, so what do I really have to do then?

What are the things I have to do? And we think about what the hierarchy of dog needs here. Think about what kind of things you

Yeah,

looking at. Um,

yeah.

that. we get to the want to do’s, we really need to think about what do we want to do with our dogs and, and remove a lot of the barriers there. So, um, you know, in our brain, we think, well, my relationship with my dog is going out for a walk and having wonderful walks, but I can’t because my dog is. negative responses to other dogs, for example. But what do you really want from that dog? What I really want for my dog is a, is a loving relationship. We’ll have that, but having a different context then because our want to do’s should become our must do’s. If you want to do them, then you must do them. And you must, you

Yeah. Yeah.

to still get the same thing.

Brilliant. Okay. All right. So what are the signs that an owner’s emotional state might be impacting their dog and how can they address it?

I think more, um, I think it’s more about us really. I think

Hmm.

own emotional state, as we talked about earlier, um, when we’re finding ourselves getting very angry, when we find ourselves getting very frustrated, when we, when we’re dreading doing things, when we, then I think we have to start thinking about some of the stuff we just talked about actually, uh, and how we manage that and how we look at, you One thing I will say is, um, how can a dog really listen to us if we’re not providing solutions that help them to feel safe? If

Yeah.

ourselves in situations where our dogs are really, know, affecting us, and that’s affecting our response back, uh, there’s a principle of emotional relevancy. need to be emotionally relevant to our dogs, ultimately. And all that

Yeah.

relevancy, is, um, If you’re trying to communicate to somebody and they keep shutting you down or ignoring you, correcting you, you’re going to

Silence.

down the seafront a little while ago, and

Silence. Silence. Silence.

my older dog, he finds things a bit tricky sometimes.

So if he, if he has a woof, he has a woof and I’m like, okay, I hear you, buddy. I hear you. It’s

Um,

You know, our own, our own conditioning, how much of that we’re projecting onto this dog. He’s just trying to survive like all of us.

Right. I’m trying to communicate their needs. One

Yeah, brilliant. Okay, what’s the one piece of advice you wish every dog owner knew?

piece of advice. Uh, I think on a general level that dominance really is not a thing. Uh, not in

Absolutely.

that their dominance is a complicated thing, but definitely not how they want to, but I think, um, I think this, I think the thing is what I really want them to know is, is something about themselves, actually, freeing ourselves from that good, bad continuum, freeing ourselves from the conformist norms around the expectations around behavior and recognize that most of the people listening now will have been damaged themselves through that process. shared

Yeah. Oh,

thing about trauma, Nathan, nothing changes with trauma around us. This is the key. So, uh, what changes is our perception of what’s around us. So it’s happened to us. It didn’t, it’s not that they weren’t, uh, and it’s our perception of things.

And, um, so, um, my perception of my family and school and friends changed because of my trauma and that affected my behavior. And, uh, My school took quite a punitive approach there and I ended up getting the cane. And

gosh.

about that, I guess what my behavior did change. This is why I think I’m quite passionate about this stuff because behavior change on its own should not be the primary goal because my

Yeah. Yeah.

Uh, my parents took a more kind of positive approach. So my father recognized that potentially, cause I got everything as a kid, Nathan, I was very lucky, but

Oh, wow.

at that was because my parents worked so hard for it all. I never saw them. So I either had a nanny or I had my members looking after me.

I say. Mm. Yeah.

So again, I did behave better. So I behaved, my behavior changed. But real consequence was my breakdown some 15, 20 years later, because I still didn’t feel safe. And my needs hadn’t been met. If somebody had had a different approach to me when I was young, and I felt safe enough to tell them about what had happened to me, then maybe I would have had the breakdown, who knows. But the point is coming back,

Yeah.

somebody, I was sharing this on a podcast, somebody saying, well, you know, I had corporal punishment when I was a kid, and it never, Didn’t harm me. We hear this a lot, don’t we? I was hit as a kid, it never hurt me.

Yeah,

just by saying that shows it hurt you because

it does. Yeah, there’s Yeah,

and it’s normalized fear. And this is what we’ve got to break away from. The sooner we can ban shop collars for me, the better, because I’m hoping it will happen

absolutely.

because these

Yes.

who advocate for them on normalizing pain and fear caregivers are being gas lit. If you like

Yes.

lied to and smoked and mirrored into, it’s the only way of dealing with stuff.

And I can tell you now,

And it’s

I work with

definitely

all the time, as do many of our colleagues, Nathan, you know, and, um, uh, and, uh, those dogs who are potentially dangerous, they’re dangerous because they’re not, not being heard and they don’t feel many of them are in pain. I

needs to not be a map for the Thank you so much. And we’re gonna, um, sort of bring the first podcast episode to a close soon. So our sort of final sort of five or so minutes, we’re going to have a final couple of questions and sort of points, um, to, to, you know, bring everything to a close. Um, if I could ask you, Andy, um, is there a story from your work that stands out a moment that reminded you why the emotional side of dog ownership is so important?

think the story I shared earlier was wonderful

Yes, the earlier one.

out with, to stand out with me. But also, um, people have heard me talk about Apu’s story. Uh, I’ve talked,

A poo?

yeah, Apu, you didn’t have Apu,

Yeah.

was Apu. Um, and, uh, is a case that will always stick with me. It’s a case study that I’ve shared at conferences and stuff. Because we’ve got a lot of footage of this dog. Um, it just shows me the extent to which some people will go to. You know, Apu was six years old when I met him. I’d spent five years of his life either tied up or in a pen in Spain. years without any human contact, just people throwing food in for him.

That was it. Um, he had a

good.

Uh, so, um, but this couple were on holiday and they fell in love with him, even though he wanted a dog. eat them. Uh, and, uh, they built a compound in their garden, Nathan. Uh, it wasn’t like a kennel. It was like a zoo, really, because they couldn’t have him in the house. So when I met them, they were having to wear bite sleeves and bite trousers. Um,

Wow.

dog, big dog, like size of a bear. it was You know, these are cases that come along and the caregivers were just so committed to this dog, despite his behavior, they saw beyond that, you know, they’re, you know, it’s such a great lesson to everybody. I think they didn’t see him as an animal that was dangerous or want to do harm.

They saw him as an animal. He was, he was struggling to cope. Uh,

Mm hmm.

uh, you know, we did wonderful things with, with this dog, uh, about helping the dog feel safe on that dog’s terms. No dog is safer to be around by being made to feel less safe. I want that to really sink in for those listening. people,

Mm hmm.

I don’t blame any of the general public. For using any kind of tool. I get it. I totally get it. I think for professionals who aren’t prepared to allow themselves to be open to moving forwards with their understanding and knowledge. Uh, when there’s so much available out there, I do have a big issue. And those who are basically um, prescribing abuse, I think it’s an outrage.

And, uh, you know,

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Uh,

Boom. I’m I’ll be right back. Because it’s early in the evening. Let’s uh, get this uh, I’ll be right back. Right. I’m not sorry. I’m going to need to do some emergency maintenance. Uh, there’s a bunch of people who are just uh, dropping in from the office. I’m sorry that this happened. We have a lot of stuff.

Um, we have to move this. Um, let me, let’s let’s uh, let’s get this thing moving.

Ultimately, they work to keep people off the street, of course, and to keep society safe. Ballstall system was scrapped because We, it wasn’t working because eat all this, there are more complicated things that affect those behaviors. And often in humans, it’s the fact that that person has developed an insecure social attachment style to those around them they feel

Yeah. That’s right.

came into the hospice. Um, they had armed guards and everything’s like a de facto prison. And, um, my husband built up his care with this guy the guy said to my husband, you know, you’re the first person to show me any care. And Kieran thought that he meant from a healthcare point of view. Um, but no, the guy said, no, ever. You’re the first person who’s

Hello.

ever cared. And this guy said that to my husband literally days away from his own death. So it’s no wonder then. You can see how somebody becomes violent to others when they learn early on, nobody’s going to care for them.

Hello. Yes.

Yeah, it’s a process in your

Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm.

up communicating, which many dogs do. And

Yeah. Yeah.

look amazing on telly. you see

Hmm.

and others because it looks

Hmm.

Just a little poke in the ribs and the dog’s like, well, because that does like

Oh, gosh.

had in my tank, but for other dogs, they’re like, no, I need to ramp up my communication with you.

Yeah. Well, we’re not a fan of shock jocks here. That’s for sure. Andy. Um,

All right.

if you could give. Mm hmm. Mm

thing to bear in mind, I think, this is the challenge, I think, many people who have gone down that route, two things, one is they feel they’ve got the answer to stuff, because it kind of works, but secondly, their own conditioning, Nathan, this is why I have Some sympathy, uh, for them on a human level, not on a professional level

hmm.

they,

Yeah. Yeah.

um, they have, they have themselves been, um, been conditioned to the normalization of pain and

Yeah.

something in their own story there potentially.

Yeah. It’s really sad. Um, if you could give one piece of reassurance to a dog, you know, feeling like they’re failing, what would it be? Um,

I think a lot of the time, this is a nice way to finish, I think, because all the things we’ve discussed today, a lot of the wisdoms around dogs, you know, um, it puts a lot of pressure on people. They feel like they’re kind of swimming upstream all the time. Many people have had multiple professionals come along trying to get the dog to behave. Without actually thinking about that dog’s lived experience, it’s hard. Caregiver burden is caregiver burden. Doesn’t matter whether you’re caring for a child, an elderly relative, or a dog. And we need to provide more spaces for people to be vulnerable and to share those experiences. You know, um, and I think us as professionals, we need to be more vulnerable too. Um, I’m not a big fan of the before and after videos that people put up, because that’s wonderful for that dog, right? And it’s good for promotion and advertising, I get it. for many people they might not achieve that. And that’s okay. Um, so I think we just have to say, be humble enough to recognize raw learning and give ourselves grace. ’cause we’ve all been there, we’ve all made those miss takes as Sarah calls them, because, you know, it’s just, it’s just a, know, we, we

I love that.

Um, and, uh, they say, don’t they, that, that somebody who kind of knows their stuff has failed more times than the novice has even tried.

Um, dog is different and, and I, and I make mistakes all the time. I get things wrong all the time, but, um, that’s how we keep learning. And, um, uh, yeah, so

Yep. We’re only human.

so

We’re only human.

we already human. And we, like you say, we’re, we’re not dog sadly. So we are

Yeah,

Uh, so yeah, I think, I think, um, you know, you’re not alone on this stuff.

My God, Arthur’s journey, Arthur’s 14 now. the reasons he, he’s better is because he’s 40, uh, but, um, uh, those first couple years, Nathan, oh my God, he was hard. It was hard. And my late mother had to keep reminding me, stop trying to fix him because

right.

I talked about other stuff, there’s a little part of me that kind of wanted to, right? Uh, so it’s hard. And I think many of us professionals need to share our own stories like this, because it is hard, it’s challenging, I think.

Absolutely. Yeah, we’ve all got them. That’s for sure. Um, Andy, thank you so much for being my first guest today on the Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily, um, for sharing your, for sharing your insights, your advice. Um, how can our listeners find out a little bit more about you? Um, do you want to just. Share where they can find out more about you, please.

yeah, so, uh, there’s a couple of groups on Facebook, if you’re on Facebook, uh, Dog Centre Care, which is, um, a dog focused one, and, um, the Emotion, uh, the, uh, Emotional Wellbeing in Animals is another one, uh, which is more about animals more generally. That’s done

Yeah,

partnership with Pet Remedy.

that’s right

um, the YouTube channel, which is where all my conversations are. Uh, there’s about a hundred plus there looking at all sorts of things from, uh, neuroscience through to, uh, kind of pathology and attachments and all this kind of stuff. So there’s a lot of, Great content there. Uh, that’s dog center care again on YouTube. But if you go to, um, www. dogcc. org, that’s where you’ll find a lot of my stuff and, um, and links to these other things as well.

Perfect. We will put all of those in the show notes as well. Um, as I said, this was our first episode today of the Yappy Hour. We’ve got some cracking guests lined up for our listeners. Um, I did do a little bit of a review earlier. We might have the amazing Sarah Fisher on at some point. Watch this space.

But we’ve got, um, a renowned separation anxiety specialist expert. We’ve got a Gonda, a gun dog. Get my words out, and Spaniel specialists. We’ve got a scent work specialist. Um, we’ve got, we’ve got a few vets that are coming on as well. So we’ve got some lots of different guests lined up. Um, one final question.

Well, two final questions, if I may, Andy. Um, I’ve just mentioned some guests that we’ve got coming on is if there’s one person that you, is there one person you could think of that we should look to invite on to the yappy hour?

Well, it’s too many dimensions while Sarah is, uh, is one Sindoor as well, Robert

Yeah,

If you want to go deep on the science, you know, I think there’s a,

brilliant.

good people out there. A lot of good.

Lots of people. Yeah, we’ve got lots of great people lined up. So finally, Andy, if dogs could give us one piece of emotional advice, what do you think they’d say?

Shake it off.

In the words of Taylor Swift, shake it off.

Shake it off. I think that’s it, isn’t it? Shake it off. Because, you know, uh, I think that’s a good one to finish on.

Brilliant. Thank you so much again, Andy, for joining me as my first guest for the first ever episode of the Yappy Hour powered by Yappily.

Thanks, Nathan.

Thank you

 What an incredible conversation with Andrew Hale. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Andy’s insights into the emotional side of dog ownership and how our own feelings can influence our dogs were truly eye opening. Here are a few key takeaways from today’s episode. Number one. Understanding that dog ownership is an emotional journey, Andy highlighted how feelings like guilt, stress and even joy can impact our interactions with our dogs and how important it is to be kind to ourselves as dog parents.

Number two, the concept of dog centered care, which reminds us to see the dogs as individuals with their own unique personalities, needs and emotions. Meeting them where they can, meeting them where they can transform our bond with them. Number three. Finally, Andy shared practical advice on how to balance our own needs with our own, with our dogs, reminding us that it’s okay to be To embrace imperfection and focus on building a happy, healthy relationship.

Andy, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and helping us to see the deeper emotional connection we have with our dogs. I can’t think of a better way to have kicked off the yappy hour. If you found this episode helpful, please consider leaving a review or sharing it with a fellow dog parent. It really helps us to reach more people who care about their dogs as much as you do.

And don’t forget to subscribe so you don’t miss out on future episodes, where we, where we’ll continue exploring all things dog related, from training tips to fascinating stories and expert advice. Thanks for listening and I’ll see you next time on The Yappie Hour, powered by Yappily.