Ep 11. Living with a Border Collie? Join breed expert Martina Miradoli for training tips, behaviour advice & managing high-energy, herding dogs.

  📍 📍 Welcome to the Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily, the podcast for dog lovers who want to build better relationships with their furry companions. I’m your host Nathan Dunleavy, and in today’s episode I’m joined by the amazing Martina Miradoli from That’ll Do Academy. Martina is an expert in all things Border Collie and today we’re diving deep into what makes this breed so unique.

We’ll explore their intelligence, energy and herding instincts and how pet parents can best support their needs. If you’re thinking about getting a Border Collie or already have one in your life, This episode is packed with invaluable advice to help you better understand and connect with your dog. So grab a cup of tea, settle in, and let’s get started.

 Welcome back to the Yappy

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Martina specializes in the collie breed. So I’m so excited to have her today. She’s a

Okay.

trainer that focuses on border collies through the That’ll Do academy. Martina has experience in helping dog owners. better understand and support this intelligent and energetic breed. So I’m so excited to dig deeper and I’m so excited to have Martina here.

Martina, welcome to the The Yappy Hour. It’s so great to have you here with me today. How are you doing? So

and thank you for having me. It’s good to actually be interviewed, because I normally interview other people, so I quite enjoy it today, being the one answering questions and not asking, but I’m

in

really good, yeah. Yeah.

I’m so glad you’re here. So brilliant. So, martina for those who might who may not know you yet Can you just share a little bit about that ado academy and what what inspired you to specialize in broader colleagues?

Yes. So if probably some of you will know that That’ll Do is the end of the work for Border Collie. When you want to call them off sheep, we don’t use their names. We actually say That’ll Do and that means forget about sheep and come away.

Oh, I had no idea. That’s

Okay. Yeah. So that’s why, that’s why I decided to call it like that.

Cause of course, you know, I deal with dogs that can’t switch off and can’t actually make the decision to stop. And I specialized in 2021. I was a bit late cause a lot of people were telling me to do it during lockdown and I was like, nah, not ready. You know, and, and then, and then I had. Because of course, you know, 2021 was still that kind of odd year where people were like working from home and everything and I had people sending me that in that year a lot of colleagues, they didn’t want to work because I think we became a bit more kind of, we could say a bit more no, we learned to be a bit more, you know, specific in what we wanted to do.

Colleagues will say, can you, can you see this colleague? Can you take care? I, I, don’t have the time and everything. So I started realizing that my colleagues were sending me colleagues.

Okay,

So I,

a mouthful,

yes, I know.

your colleagues have said to your colleagues

so I decided why not, why not specializing? And at that point I’ve had Border Collies since, you know, my first Border Collie arrived in 2005. So it’s going to be. 20, 20 years now from owning my first border Collie. So I decided maybe, maybe I know something about the breed . Yeah, and I’ve been doing everything with them.

You know, I’ve done competitive obedience, competitive agility, herding since my very first dog. I’ve trained them with sheep as well. I’ve done scent work. I’ve done a bit of everything. And of course they were my pets and they were my companion. They traveled from Italy with me.

because

My first two.

Italy.

Yeah.

So I moved in 2014 and they traveled with me. We had a car full of stuff. We just traveled.

Wow, so what made you come from Italy then? Because I imagine it’s a beautiful part of the world. And what part of Italy are you from?

So I’m from Milan. So I’m from a big city.

even exotic.

I know. I’m from a big city and now I’m sitting in my own farm in the middle of nowhere.

Yes, that’s

I’d rather that.

Yeah, exactly. So yeah, I just well, my, my dad, so the first time I actually acknowledged Borg Collies was when I was very little and we went on holidays to Ireland and the UK because my dad was very passionate about everything that was British and Irish, everything about these two islands.

And, and the, you know, when they give you coloured books to colour when you’re a kid in restaurants and my mum has still got a couple of them and there’s one where, where there’s a kid like. having a dream. And I’ve put sheep and I’ve put a black and white dog in that. But I was like, I don’t know, eight. I didn’t even know what I was doing.

And then my mom is like, look at this. You were already drawing

Yeah,

because I, I, yeah, because I was seeing them in the, you know so yeah, so it started there.

that.

I manifested it, yes.

Oh wow. Oh, that’s so exciting. So Martina, what is it about Border Collies that fascinates you the most?

So again, the first time I actually learned what Border Collies were, is when I was coming to this country as, as a kid with my parents and I remember seeing them moving sheep. And I didn’t even like dogs at the time because I was a horse person, a horse, horse kid at the time, horse and cats. I didn’t have dogs at the time.

But that’s, I think that’s the thing that always fascinated me is, is their ability to drive to the job they have. And even when I got my first Border Collie, and I still didn’t know that it was possible to actually, in Italy, train them with sheep, I, you know, I wanted a Border Collie because they were those dogs that were moving sheep in the UK.

So I think that’s always the thing that fascinated me, and I was in horses before I was in dogs, and I love training. And I used to, you know, ride at quite high level in horses as well, I was doing dressage. So I’ve always liked Yeah, I’ve always liked to, to, to have a relationship with animals with a higher kind of intelligence where you can do, where you can train higher skills together.

So when I looked into what breeds, then they were the one that were described as you can do everything with them. You can do agility, you can do this dog, you can do freestyle, you can do, you can do everything. You know, they herd sheep all day and they go and gather sheep on the hill. So. that, that was similar to the horses I was working with.

Yeah, oh wow. Aren’t they the most, aren’t they the most intelligent breed, Collies? of all

I’m not sure.

what they say? I think

They,

are second and

yeah, I

but I don’t know how true that is.

think there are different types of intelligence. I think that’s the study. I can’t remember. I read it many, many years ago. And I think they are the most intelligent and in a way that they, they can be trained at high level and they can be trained at high details and, and, and skills, as we all know, you know, freestyle and, you know, all the dancing dogs that know millions behaviours.

So yeah, I think they can be trained at a high level. Now put one of them in the woods, they’ll probably wouldn’t survive.

Oh, okay.

They’re not, you know, they’re not good hunters at all. So they have, they have their own qualities, but yeah. So

Oh, wow. That’s really interesting. Thank you. So moving on to our next section is understanding the border collie mindset. Border collies are known for their intelligence. We’ve just mentioned that and their work ethic. But what does that really mean for a day to day life with them?

they are driven to work. They are driven, driven to do something. They want to constantly be doing something. So they are dogs that as soon as you get up, They’re up and they’re like, okay, what are we doing now? I can’t, in the morning, I wake up in the morning, I have my breakfast, they, they, they have the breakfast, I have my breakfast, and then the moment they read my body language so well, and that’s, that’s, that’s a thing that is very sometimes difficult for people, they read my body language, as soon as they understand that that’s my last sip of coffee, they’re up at the door, and like, my young one is pushing at the door like that, like, come on, come on, come on, let’s go out, let’s go out, because they love the routine.

Right.

So we go in the paddock and then they play and you know, I walk around with them and I make them run so they have that half an hour of burning energies in the morning before I start my work or I start doing things around the farm. So I think, I think that drive is what is, yeah, is what really people don’t realise they have.

You know, they think, oh yeah, it’s going to be a puppy, it’s going to be this and that. My six months old puppy just now finished teething, finished that kind of little bit sensitive phase, and I can see the drive now. You know, I can see it. I can’t wait to train her on sheep because she needs it. And, and

something to do. Yeah.

her, I’m doing a lot of tricks training and shaping and other things but she needs to start and at six months old you can start seeing the amount of work she will need because she’s really on all the time and she wants to do, you know, she’s constantly asking you let’s do this, let’s do that.

So the drive I think is, is, is what, is the drive to do and the drive to be useful as well is, is what.

yeah. How many colleagues do you have, Martina?

I have five. Five? Yes, five. Yeah, so we have eight dogs. Yeah, we have eight dogs in total. Yeah.

seven, so you’ve

Oh, well,

me.

yes Yeah, so they go from six months old to 14

Lovely,

yeah,

So I was just, it’s going to come to one of our questions, but I was just thinking that for, like, a pet parent or a guardian to bring a border collie puppy into their lives, their home, they really need to understand the breed and do their research, you know, because

yes,

think, oh, it’s a puppy.

And then like you say, they need to be given something to do. So what are the most what are some of the most common misconceptions people have about border collies?

so I think that The, the, the, the one that, that we’re talking about before, the fact that they’re so intelligent, people think they’re easy to train. And because you see them on TV and they have, they have these amazing skills and it looks like it’s easy. So I think everyone thinks, oh yeah, I’ll get a botacoli because they’re easy.

Right,

And for some reason, people think that they’re good for children because they are playful. But it’s not always the case. Sometimes, you know, it is actually more challenging if you’ve got kids in the home. And I think, I think the border collie breed has changed a lot in the last 10 years, 10, 20 years.

And I think a lot of people had them when they were kids. If they are our age, they might have had them when they were kids and their parents or their grandparents had a Border Collie and the type of Border Collie that was more available 20 years ago was a different type of dog. than the one we have now, which is changing, you know.

have

So I think that some people remember the old Boricolli that was happy to just sit and wait to go for a walk, and but nowadays are bred to be more driven and quicker to work, so they’re bred to have a quicker switch on to work because there is a lot of trade around Boricollis. You know, people do it for a living.

They buy them as puppies, they start them, they sell them, you know, at ten or twelve years old. months old, fully trained on sheep.

Wow.

that means that they have more drive and they have more prey. You know, chase instinct because they have to be starting a bit quicker and be ready quicker than, than, you know, in, in the old days they say, Oh, you know, bought a collie wouldn’t work until he was, you know, a year and a half or two, you know, they will take their time to train them while nowadays they’re fully trained at 10 months old.

So you have to breed something that can take that.

Wow, that’s, that’s amazing. so for those pet parents that are considering a border collie, what should they know before bringing one into their home?

So first thing is I would. Suggest to look at the breed as a whole because of course the more available one are the working border collies everyone is a farm. around where they live and they think that the easiest thing is to go and buy a puppy from a farm. But the random farm that breeds to work doesn’t have the selection for a dog that is suitable to pet living.

Yeah.

suggestion is to actually go out and look at the options you have is not always the best option to go to a farm.

It’s a bit more, you know, it’s prettier with more coat, but they are bred to actually be more calm and has less drive because they’re bred to appear nice.

Yeah, and probably some people are breeding more for pets types or,

Yeah.

straight away. So do your research. What kind of collie are you taking home? Are you going to,

yeah.

mountains to work on.

They live in the middle of nowhere and it might have been generation of dogs that live in the middle of nowhere. What they’re selecting is a dog that, yeah, it’s a bit noise sensitive, who cares? We are in the middle of nowhere. They need a lot of exercise. They’ve got mountains to work on. But if you’re taking that into Manchester, that can be a problem.

yeah, into a big city. Yeah, yeah, I can imagine. So I was walking at Border Collie at one point, and I think this is a common thing that you probably know what I’m about to say is that it chases, it used to chase cars. Coming up, we’d walk out of her house and it was like, like a bit of a, a hill. And in the end I had to park quite outside her house because at that point I wasn’t training. I was, I was doing dog walking. So I didn’t understand, but she used to chase the cars. So I guess that’s her, that’s her innate sort of, that’s her makeup, isn’t it? To sort of do something like that.

Yeah, so border collies chase cars for two main reasons. One is, of course, you know, they see something that moves and they want to control it. But then there is another reason that I see very often, which is actually is driven by fear of the noise of the car.

Oh, okay. That’s

Yeah, because border collies have that need to control and when they are afraid of something, they tend to control it.

A lot of border collie will shark around other dogs or things that they’re not sure about and that’s the way to actually control what they’re scared of. So I see sometimes border collies actually start chasing cars because they hear this noise. they hear this, they see this big thing moving, they don’t know what it is, and then they want to stop it, they want to control it, because that makes them feel better about it.

I see. Okay. Yeah,

these are the two main reasons that, that they will stop. But there’s definitely some that will chase, or will want to chase cars, because they just, they’re on a lead, they get frustrated, something is going past very fast, and they just want to stop it.

Yep. And they have better hearing than us as dogs, so they can hear these loud noises, like you say. And there’s a lot of them going up and down the road. So to the

Yeah,

dog, it’s like, oh, my God, like what’s going on? yeah.

I have my, at the moment I’ve got my iPhone earphones on, which are completely, you know, soundproofed.

Yeah,

And I don’t know how, but if I’m listening, if I’m watching a video of sheepdog training quite loud because I’m, and, and Tay’s in the room, he can hear it. You can hear the whistle in the video.

right.

know how so if, even if I try to watch it without earphones and I put it at the minimum level, he still hears the whistling and he will start, you know, standing up and looking around and looking at me and then looking out the window and expecting sheep to be there. So that’s the level of hearing they have.

Amazing. Absolutely

so yeah.

And for our listeners, because again, it’s another question I don’t really know the answer to, and I probably should, but for our listeners, like when their border collie stalks goes down low, you just explain what’s happening there? Yeah. Yeah.

Collies are the only three breeds that work with the eye. All the other herding breeds will work with the bark or with body pressure or just with their movement, but the collies work with their eye, which means that they use the prey sequence, which starts with, you know, eyeing the prey and stalking the prey.

They behave, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve, it’s so much fun when I watch some documentary of wolves because you can see the wolf moving, ready to pounce on a prey and it looks like One of my colleagues that have no coat and got pricked ears. They move the same way, you know, they look like predators. And that stance, of course, startles the sheep.

And that starts moving and they start reacting to what we call the pressure. They put pressure on the livestock with that stance. And that stance that I is used to control. They control sheep that way, so they will move left and right, and with the movement and the eyes constantly on the prey, the sheep will actually move to get away from that pressure, and that’s how they control flocks.

Right. Yeah, that’s so interesting. So interesting. So moving on to our next section is the needs of a high energy breed. So we know that Border Collies thrive on both physical and mental stimulation. What are some of your favourite ways to meet those needs?

Okay, so first thing with Border Collies is that we need to try not to give them too much of a routine. And of course in a fa on a farm, it’s easier because, you know, I have my fields and I have this and that. But when you, when you live in a, in a home and you know, you don’t have, you don’t have the same kind of rhythm all the time.

If you create a big routine that they will want it all the time. So I always try, when I used to live in a house, well, even now, like today, they had no walk. I always try to. mix and match what they do. I don’t do the same thing every day. I don’t expect, I don’t ask them to do it. I don’t expect them to want like three hour walk every day.

There’s some days where we do a big walk and there’s some days where we do a lot of training and there’s a day where we go for a walk on a lead and there’s a day where we do, you know, we go to class and there’s a day where. We go shopping. I don’t know that every time there is, there needs to be something different.

Give them different things to do. Don’t just do one thing.

Yeah. Yeah.

So if you’re planning to have a border collie to just have a walk around the block is not going to work, they’re going to end up into troubles.

So they need high, high exercise, like high intensity exercise,

Yeah.

and that can be going running with them, that can be taking them swimming, that can be play of course with them, although I’m not a big fan of ball throwing and ball chucking a lot, but if that’s twice a week where they burn energy in 10 15 minutes and they, they sometimes need it they need a lot of training.

Their brain needs to be stimulated a lot.

ball throwing has been being repetitive, not good on their joints. Is that and that’s a

It’s not good on their joints and it’s not good on their adrenaline level. They, they, they just want more. I’m working at the moment with two different ones from different places, different ages, but similar problem because that’s the main exercise they get, ball throwing, ball throwing, ball throwing, they can’t switch off.

It’s a bit obsessive

Yes, he’s obsessive. And then this, yeah,

and I think has pet owners, pet parents like, like we probably don’t know no different. We think that’s okay because we see it and we think that’s okay to throw a ball. But really it’s probably have more of an adverse effect on the dog.

yeah. And don’t get me wrong. You know, you can do it, but the way you do it and when you start doing it, I would never do it with a puppy. I would wait until they’re fully grown and they’re a bit older. So my puppy saw, played with a, with a ball, like me chucking the ball, her play, chasing and bringing it back for the first time last week or this week or this day, last week.

She’s six months old. She has a good retrieve. She wants to share the toy with me. She knows that, you know, she gets, you know, the toys about me and her. So at this point, throwing the ball a couple of times, she’ll bring it back, sit in my lap and give it to me. It’s not an obsessive thing. She’s not waiting for me to throw it.

because we’ve built a routine already where she sits and waits or I hold the collar, I throw the toy out, I wait for the toy to stop, then she goes and chases it, then she brings it back to my hand, and then we do a bit of training, and then I throw the toy again, and then I ask her some behaviour, so the ball becomes part of a game between me and her rather than me just being a a ball chucker.

I think that then also helps improve your bond and your relationship, that play.

yeah, exactly. So yeah, so you know, it’s important though that they have some high intensity

Mm.

because they need it. You know, if they can’t go work in sheep where they really use all their energies and all their power, both mental and physical, then they need to have it. So yes, agility is good.

Fly ball could be good. Other sports, centaur sport. is good, but, you know, play needs to be, play is probably the best way to give them that kind of outlet. But it needs to be done the proper way.

That’s great. Thank you. Martina, how can pet parents provide appropriate outlets without over exercising or over stimulating their dog?

I think giving, again, giving them like, in, for example, in the house, I have toys available for them, but I don’t do a lot of toy play in the house. So in the house is more relaxing time.

Yes. I’m

that’s a big rule.

Yeah.

and I, and they have toys. because I have multiple dogs, of course, so they have to be available.

They sometimes play with each other, especially the young dogs, but they know that I’m not part of it. So that if then the other dogs don’t want to play, the young ones learn to settle.

Mm.

so the houses settle time.

I’m big on that. The house is all calm and activity, settle time, but

Yeah.

you can maybe have the more sort of

Yeah.

yeah.

Yeah. And then maybe one of the heart of the room, like the kitchen, for example, could be the training place. Cause of course you have to be doing training indoor.

Yes.

it’s more like it’s the kitchen. So. Then the living room where you sit down on your sofa and you want to relax. There’s no play involved in the living room.

They need to learn. Some of them need to learn to switch off. Not all of them. Some of them are really good, but some have to learn. So to me, using a pen and using a crate to teach them that there is switch off time, it’s important. I’ll tell you, for example. I talk about my dogs a lot in my podcast and everything.

That’s

one of my, yeah, one of my, so I have now, since I moved to the farm, I have got two new Border Collies. So Kite arrived in February, so he’s a year old, and Tali is six months old.

Oh,

Now, they are completely opposite, they could be two different breeds, in temperament and everything. Clyde took nearly a year to learn to settle in the house.

And he’s not a house dog, he sleeps in kennel. I mean, he comes in the house, but then when I’m, when I’m here working or, you know, I’m doing something that I can’t keep an eye on the dogs, he goes back to his kennel. And he’s the happiest dog in the world out there, because he’s able to switch off.

Mm.

In a house where I’ve got cats, I’ve got the other dogs, I go in and out, it’s too much stimulation for him.

Yes.

So, some dogs, not all of them, Tali’s completely the opposite, she’s six months old, she’s still in the house and she settles very nicely in the house, she doesn’t have a crate anymore, apart from during the night but some dogs really need that kind of space where they completely can switch off.

Mm.

So it’s important to plan that in advance

Yeah.

and create a space where you don’t keep going in and out, where you don’t have cats and kids running in, where you don’t have other dogs bothering them.

That place where they can go and just switch off because they need that as a breed, they need to, more than others, because otherwise their brain is developed, has been selected to constantly be active and work. And if their surrounding is constantly movement, there’s always movement kids and cats and other dogs and people going in and out, then they, some of them will not be able to settle.

So, giving them that settling time and that settling space is very important. Because I think that sometimes, and I get that often in my students, you know, like, how much does your puppy sleep? Oh, she doesn’t sleep, she’s up and about all day. That’s why we have problems.

Puppies need about 18 hours, 18, 20 hours sleep, don’t they?

Yes, yes, exactly. So, yeah.

They can’t be always on the go. Perfect. So are there any creative enrichment activities that work particularly well for Border Collies?

I have to say, my favourite thing is just teaching as many behaviours as you want. Now, I, I am not, I, I’m going to talk about this a little bit because there is, there is a game that you can teach them, where you can teach them to stalk a bull, and that looks like they’re stalking a sheep. Now, I’ve tried it with my own dogs, they don’t care.

And I have, they don’t care, they just don’t care. I like to teach my dogs to, as I said already, share a toy with me and, and bring it back to me and we do a bit of tug and I might throw it out or we might just, you might just chase it. So I’m not a big fan of alternative herding and stalking games.

I

And, yeah, and you might find undercollege specialists that do that as their main thing.

Everyone is different. I’ve had border collie for 20 years. My dogs have seen sheep, but not enough to say they’ve always worked. They are used to living in a big city. And

My colleague that is now 14 years old is one of the strongest dog I’ve ever had in prey drive and need to work. You know, he needed a farm.

I didn’t have it.

Too difficult for me to handle on the sheep, it was got too much drive. So from three years old, up to now that he’s 14, he’s not practiced his stalking abilities, and he’s still been a very happy dog, because I provide the training, play, scent work activity and enrichment activity.

So your Border Collie doesn’t need activities to stalk and herd.

Yeah.

to listen to requests and, and love to do things for you. So, there is not one thing, and I don’t think that every border collie has to hurt, and has to stalk things to be happy, but they need to definitely Feel like they’re doing a job.

So for my, for, for Moss, agility was a job. You know, you can see in his face, it wasn’t just enjoyment. It was a job. It was sit in the front of the first jump and he would attack that course. Like, you know, like he was working on the mountains to collect the sheep. It was, it was a job for him. So they need, they need, they need to, they need to have that brain stimulated and you can’t just teach them, sit down and stand and stay,

Nah,

they have to learn constantly,

Yeah.

behaviours.

behaviors.

Sounds like about just having those appropriate additional outlets to keep them engaged.

Yeah, yeah. So so yeah it’s not a specific thing, but scent work is a great thing because scent work, for example, is teaching them, is giving them something to work. They definitely work when they sniff a lot and they go in high intensity sniffing. They do use a lot of energies. then the end result of finding something is play.

If you teach it that way, and I do personally, I teach them that after they found something for me, then we play for a good few minutes. And because they’re using their nose, for example, instead of their eyes, then they’re not learning, you know, they’re using a sense that phlebotocollis is not as natural and is helping counteracting the eye.

which can get him into trouble. So I use scent work a lot for dogs that go around stalking and looking for things to stalk. Actually teaching them to do some scent work in those situations is very useful.

Yeah, love scent work. Perfect. Thank you so much. So moving on to our next section, and that’s the challenges of owning a border collie. Sorry, my dog’s led on my, my questions there. So border collies come, sometimes struggle with over overstimulation or frustration. How can owners start to recognize the early signs and respond appropriately?

Okay. Okay.

to, to know how a dog is not able to, you know, The dog that cannot pay attention. You know, when you start taking your puppy out, and you are trying to get your puppy attention, and they are looking around, stalking something, not taking your treats, pulling on a lead, going all crazy every time there is something appearing in the environment, this is the first time that your puppy shouldn’t be put in that situation until you have better focus skills and you have better You know, training tools to be able to have a puppy that is paying attention.

And that’s where problems start arising. We have a puppy. We take them out on the walk because we have to socialize them. But that puppy that is bred to start noticing the environment and the movement in the environment that doesn’t have any skills to be able to pay attention to the owner is going to start looking at things that move.

And that’s how, for example, car chasing starts. Because they are on the road, suddenly something goes past very fast and they look at it. And they are like, Ooh, and then they are on the lead. So they can’t actually perform the behaviour. And then they start pulling and then they start getting frustrated.

Do you and the majority of owners don’t see that? I see, you know, when you drive as a dog trainer, you drive your car

Yes, I know what

and

say.

Yeah, and then you look, oh, there’s a Border Collie, and I see this little puppy on a harness that is not suitable for that puppy on a flex lead

Oh God.

an old person that is already staring at my car going past.

And the owners are not even aware because they’re chatting with each other and this puppy is already stalking cars. That puppy is four or five months old when he reaches a year old and he weights 20 kilos. And he’s still on the flex lead.

person over.

Yes, this is where it starts, but nobody. realizes until it’s a big problem.

I thought you were going to say that. I mean, you probably look out for Border Collies, but I find that I just look at other people’s dogs. I see people out walking their dogs and I’m. I’m fascinated. I just look at the dog and I’m like, oh,

Yes, I’m a bit of a Border Collie myself, so I’m a bit obsessed. So I normally, if it’s a dog, I just let it go. But if it’s a Border Collie, I stop and look at the behaviour and I’m like, yeah, look at that.

I mean, that’s a good idea to do that, isn’t it? Because you specialize in that breed. So, I mean, I’ve got toy poodles and chihuahuas. So obviously, like, you know, I see tons of like poodle crosses and

Yeah.

yeah, I just find myself looking at people’s dogs. They must think I’m crazy. So how do you behave in pet homes? Can be very challenging. What’s your advice for managing them safely?

So the first thing is, as soon as you have just a bit of suspicion that your puppy is performing herding behaviours towards your cat, your kids, your neighbor’s kids, a car, a bike, a runner, and that means that they might look at the something that is coming close and then they pounce forward or they stalk, their head goes down and they look like they are kind of hypnotized by that.

That’s the first sign that you should contact a dog trainer.

Right.

that understands that because I get, again, Everyone has their specialities, we can’t be good at everything. If someone comes to me with separation anxiety, I send them to someone else. Because it’s not my specialty.

Oh, that’s one of my specialities.

Yeah so I’ll add you to my list of people that I know might send names out.

Yeah.

and manage it from the beginning, which means not exposing your puppy to situations that can provoke their behaviour again, until you’ve done some training to prevent their behaviour.

It’s going to just escalate. It’s not going to get better. So don’t hope that Border Collies grow, you know, and I hear it all the time. Oh, they’ll grow out of it. Just sit on a chair on the, on a, on a bench next to a busy road and just leave them there for two hours with you.

Oh,

No. No, the way Border Collies trigger, I’ll tell you how I triggered my six month old puppy to work sheep.

She wasn’t interested in sheep, so I took her with me every time I trained my other dogs and I allowed her to watch. Guess what? One day she went like, Oh, I like that. So I went in with her and she suddenly started chasing sheep. that’s how they develop the chase and the wanting to work is allowing them to watch.

So now every time there is sheep I stop and I allow her to watch and I see her head going down, her bum going up, and she starts having that shape of a border collie. So allowing them to look at movement happening is the best way to develop that behaviour, not to get them past it. And I think there’s this misconception yet, still.

You know, a lot of dog trainers, as well as owners that trust those dog trainers.

sounds a bit like you can do that engage disengage game, can’t you?

Yes.

Letting them sort of engage and then the

Yeah.

yeah,

Yeah. So I’m, I’m a Control Unleashed instructor as well. So I’m, I’ve done my, my certification in 2020 with Lesley McDevitt.

yes

yes,

So yeah, I use the look at that game and all the pattern game to help dogs filter in the environment through focused based games. So that they learn that, okay, yeah, there is, there is traffic far away, but we are here and we are learning to engage with me while disengaging from traffic.

And the sooner you start that process. The suit, you know, the better it is for, for little puppies or dogs that start noticing movement.

Mm.

yeah,

Okay.

Brilliant. Thank you. So how can, how do you help Border Collie pet parents teach their dogs to switch off and relax?

so the first thing that I always say to everyone that asks me that question is, you can, your dog cannot be relaxed and switch off unless they’ve had appropriate exercise and training.

Mm

no relaxation without appropriate exercise and training.

mm.

so just doing calming games. or giving them a chew or giving them a kong is not going to make them relax if they have excess energy, both brain and body.

So make sure that you meet their needs and they get enough exercise in an appropriate and safe way and enough training. Now after that is teaching them a routine. So for young dogs, I take them out for a walk, I take them out for training, they go to the toilet, they go back to their crate or their pen, they get a chew, they get a kong, and they learn to switch off after they’ve done exercise.

So that they learn that after they had like adrenaline time, because they’ve been out playing and training and doing that, then I allow them an activity that calms them down. and helps them calm down, because otherwise, the problem of a lot of Border Collie is that they’re not able to calm down on their own and they need that input.

So allowing them to chew on something that will last them a bit, or to give them a frozen Kong with food in it that will last them a bit, then is allowing the adrenaline to go down in that time that they’re chewing, and then they find themselves in the crate or in the pen, and it’s much easier for them to then say, okay, now I’ve had enough, I’ve done my exercise, I’ve done my training, I’ve done my enrichment, then I go for a nap.

Silence.

all the training that you can do to help that, which is teaching them to relax on a bed and promoting relaxation through training, so that they learn actually standing still and putting their head on their legs, on their front feet, and, you know, that kind of promoting The, the attitude of relaxation through training in the house can also improve or make, make that relaxation a bit quicker, but some dogs takes ages to, to get to that level.

My, you know, one year old, it took him nearly a year to learn to actually switch off in the house, which meant that if I had to switch him off, I had to put him in a place where he could switch off rather than allowing him to do it on his own in the house.

Yeah, yeah, sometimes you’ve got to sort of help them, haven’t you? You’ve got to show them that sometimes they can’t sort of self regulate themselves. So you kind of need to sort of,

Exactly.

them to do that. Brilliant. So that’s really great. So we’re going to move on to our next section, which is training for connection and cooperation. So what training approaches work best for Border Collies? given their intelligence and sensitivity?

Well, definitely has to be positive.

Absolutely.

But it shouldn’t be permissive in a way that you don’t want to just drop all your boundaries and your, you know, like they need to have some boundaries still. They need to know that some things are not allowed, like my puppies learned that they’re not allowed to bite the cats and chase the cats and eat the cats like they’re sheep from the beginning, you know, because they have to live with the cats in the kitchen.

I, you know, and so positive training, a lot of play, I like to teach them to think. So I do shaping and capturing. So I have a sequence of exercises that start from teaching them to put their feet in a box and then go around a cone and then you know, go on a, on a mat and then I develop other behaviours that are used for fitness in the feet when they’re a bit older.

teaching them to think how to obtain something rather than just provide it for them. You know, there’s a box in front of you, I’ve got a treat here, I’ve got my clicker, what can you do to obtain that food? And they start offering behaviours because they have the brain for it, and then they learn that Yeah, get them thinking and learn and make them learn that actually, if they produce a certain behaviour, then the rewards comes.

Yes.

So that they start offering the good behaviour or trying to offer something in order to be rewarded. So I really like shaping for that reason with colleagues. I do use a lot of Primark. with them, which is probably a bit more advanced for most pet people, but I like to explain it to, to owners.

yeah, definitely.

We train, Primack principle states that a behaviour that is unlikely to happen often gets rewarded by, I’m sorry, a behaviour that is, that is unlikely to happen, or the dog doesn’t want to do, gets reinforced by the behaviour that the dogs want to do.

So instead of using the actual reward, you can use behaviours to reinforce other behaviours. And this is how we train them on sheep. We don’t have treats. We don’t have a clicker. We don’t have toys. If you lie down, you can walk on. If you come away with the sheep, you can go back to them. If you turn left and you give space to the sheep, then you can bring them to me.

So they learn with, if you do something that you don’t want to do because your instinct is telling you to do opposite, then I let you do what you want to do, which is what your instinct is telling you to do.

Yeah,

that way we call is even in everyday life works really well. to teach them like, you know, if I need to remove the lid before you can run off, you can sit calmly.

And instead of jumping on the door to get out, you can sit quietly while I open the door. So teaching them that behaviour produce behaviours,

Yes.

and that sometimes is more powerful than any treats.

Yeah, perfect. How important is relationship building when working with this braid?

Yes, so it’s, it’s. It’s important, like, I think, with any dog, but some Border Collies, you know, that’s why I always, my partner, I’m laughing because my partner, today, my one year old that used to be a very independent dog, now he’s like my second skin.

Oh, okay.

He was very, when he came, I was like, oh no, an independent dog, I can’t stand them.

I just want dogs that are easy to train, that wants to be with you. And now, if I’m sitting in the kitchen, he’s on me, like, he sits on my lap, and, you know. like a Velcro dog. So they, they do become Velcro dog if you have the right relationship. And that is so much easier than having a dog that doesn’t want to be a Velcro because of course,

That’s interesting.

yes, because of course, if you have a dog that is so interested in environment, you need to have a dog that wants to be with you so that then, you know, my, as I said, my one year old kite, we go for a walk and he’s in front of me jumping and looking at me jumping and looking at me.

It’s a bit obsessive, but that doesn’t make him chase after hairs. or disappear into the woods looking for deer, you know, it helps in keeping with me. And we build that through relationship and that relationship also come through work. So you can, you know, they, they do trust you and they do want to be with you once they know that they work for you.

whatever that work is. That’s why training is important with them because the breed has been bred on that work in relationship with the, with the shepherds.

Mm. Mm.

So it’s so important.

you were saying, did something happen with him in today? You said he was sat with you or something, or? Oh,

Yeah, today it was so I was waiting for my partner to finish lunch and everyone else was like Yeah, I lie down in the kitchen and he was sitting on me with his paws on my shoulder and his head like wrapped around my neck and she turns around and looks and is like, it’s disgusting. It just has to be a second skin.

I see what you mean now, yeah.

Yeah, it is like that. Yeah.

oh, I love it though. I wouldn’t want it any other way. What, would be the mistake that you see Border Collie Pet parents making border collie guardians making when it comes to training. Mmm.

of idea that Border Collies are not food motivated dogs. I’ve never had one that didn’t, you know, if they came to me not food motivated, there was a health issue. And when we got past that health issue, then the food motivation came and was there.

And I think that the biggest problem is because they’re so busy. they sometimes forget to take the treat, they forget to eat, finish their dinner. And instead of making sure that when you offer a treat, and when you give them their dinner, they’re able to take it and to finish it, they either start putting too much pressure on the fact that they have to eat, or they have to take the treat, or they put the value up, because they have to eat, they’re puppies, they have to eat.

And The biggest issue I have when I have owners coming to me is that their Border Collies don’t want to work for food because of these two reasons. So then I have to work hard to put food motivation back into the dog that sees food as a kind of a sort like, like, like a bit of a poison, you know. Oh, no, you’re going to put so much pressure on me because they are sensitive dogs to take that treat.

So that must be, you know, I don’t want it. And And yeah, instead of, like, if they have to eat, just put them in a situation where they can finish their dinner. And if you’re offering treats, you need to make sure that they are in a situation to be able to take treats. And sometimes when they’re puppies, they’re not.

They have,

Yeah.

is the last of their problems, but we try, you know, and everyone tries their best to try because, you know, training with food is good and they try, but then that way you poison.

the food for them, for them. So, offer food when they are able to take it, to start with, and put them in a situation to be able to take food. And when they can’t, then try to manage it, don’t, don’t force treats on them. And that way, then when they grow a bit, and they can pay attention more, and they can focus more, then you haven’t put You know, that kind of bad emotion into, into food.

And I think that’s, and the second thing would be ball playing, probably. Too much ball play, too much ball play, and then not enough relationship play, just ball play. And then, if there’s no ball, then they don’t pay attention. They don’t come back for a recall. You know, they just go and do their own things as the ball goes away.

So train first and then teach play in a more kind of, in a relationship way and then the ball can come in the future when they’re a bit older and they have a good recall and they, you know, they, they know how to bring a toy back and enjoy the toy with you rather than just throw it at your feet and back off to wait on the throw.

Right. Okay. Thank you. Wow. We literally sailed through this episode literally packed with information and advice. It’s so interesting. For the last sort of five to seven minutes, I’m gonna just ask you some remaining sort of three or four questions if I may. So Martina. what’s the most rewarding part of working with Border Collies?

So I, I think that once they get Once, once the owner and the dog understand each other, it’s seeing that, and, and see their relationship growing and seeing that kind of drive that we talked about at the beginning channeled into doing something for the owner.

Mm.

Once that is achieved, then it’s amazing to see how much The owners enjoy training

Mm.

dogs enjoy working for the owner.

Mm.

So once they get to that point where they understand how to engage with their dogs and how to, how to make that work like being a job for the dog, then, then that’s it. That’s, that’s, that’s. That’s the best thing in the world.

Yeah, brilliant. And I picked up on something you said earlier about obviously and I’m really big on this, that the dog was reading the human’s body language. And I’m so big on sort of like pet owners or pet professionals learning and understanding canine body language.

Mm hmm.

really important, isn’t it, as

Yeah.

they read our body language and our cues and they. They communicate to us through their body language, they communicate to each other. So it’s so powerful, isn’t it, to really understand all that.

Yeah, and if you think about the boricolli have been selected to read livestock behaviour. So I think they are exceptional at reading body language.

Yeah.

because they’ve been bred to observe the sheep and they know the sheep are moving before you even know. and that’s why it’s difficult. We haven’t even touched about herding, but that’s why training them with sheep is difficult because the dog sees it before you and then you’re late queuing what they should be doing.

So yeah, so they are good and they, but also I think the, I think what I call is, Again, one thing that is very important about body language and Border Collies is that a lot of the time, what looks like fear is actually not, you know, a lot of the time, you know, the tail goes down, the head goes down, and they look like they’ve got that typical attitude that you probably have in your, in your head from the books that we started at the beginning of our journey, where that dog is like a bit arched down, the tail under and the ears back and the head down, and they’re like, oh, he’s scared, no.

That’s a herding stance. Yeah. Yeah.

why I always say you’ve got to put it into context, and there could be breed specific traits that they’re

Yeah. Yeah, so Kite, when he works, his tail is, of my colleagues, is the one that has the best tail. That’s considered the best tail. And I’ve been, I’ve been, you know, people have, have told me, oh, he’s got a good tail. The good tail is, means that his tail is under his belly and he’s so much under his belly that the tip comes out to the side.

Wow.

of his leg when he works.

Yeah.

see that, if I show you a picture of that without contact, you probably see all the dog is petrified,

Mmm. Mmm.

scared. You know, his ears might be back and, you know, his eyes might be a bit, no, he’s hurting.

Wow. That’s

Yeah. So, Yeah, that’s why it’s important, as you say, for owners to read the body language, but knowing also what dogs they have,

Yeah.

because in a collie that is, can be fear, you know, it can be fear.

But if they’re doing it to another dog, it could also be just that they’re trying to control the other dog.

I don’t know if it’s possible or not because you said we’ve not touched on Herodin. Did you want to just give us a quick overview of Herodin? Good.

Yes, I would like to say something because that’s a question I get asked a lot of the time from dog owners and, and colleagues about,

Mmm. Yeah.

starting herding as a hobby to help them, you know, having an enriched life and to give them an outlet. And I, I’ve been doing it, you know, I’ve had this farm for a year.

Before that, I was doing herding as a hobby with my dogs. And I’ve done it since my very first dog, she was a show line, she wasn’t even a working line, but she was working for me, then I had Moss, then I got Jock, then I got Tay, which is my, my main working dog, but he started herding as a hobby, as a, as a kind of every other week activity, when he was one, and he’s four now, so I’ve done it with all my colleagues as a kind of activity, but I will always Say to my students that wants to start or my colleagues that ask me, where can I go with my students colleague that needs an activity because they want to chase everything.

I always say, you know, it’s not always the best choice because you can’t just take the call it to ship once a month or once every other weekend. And then if you have a month of rain and you never go back and then you go back because some colleagues needs. daily exposure to sheep to be able to actually train and progress and actually listen and be safe for the sheep, because we have not forget the herding is about the sheep.

The sheep are our main concern. We train dogs so that we can manage our livestock in a good welfare. You know, and, and having dogs means that I’m not, you know, I, I, I can move ship easily and calmly from one place to the other without the ships getting stressed, which means that it’s important that the dogs doesn’t stress the ship out.

And unless you do it regularly, some dogs won’t allow you that. So you start an activity with them that it might not be able to progress because they are too much. Like Moss couldn’t do it as a hobby. He had to stop when he was three because he was biting sheep. So I had to stop. Yeah, he had a big grip and that grip was excitement and

Okay.

have that. But if I had a farm back then, I could have trained that out of him quicker because I could give him a lot of job and then he will, you know, he will be calm every time he goes to sheep. So it’s not always the best activity for pet dogs. But if you have.

You know, but some of my students do it. They come to me or I send them to someone else that, you know, I’m not, it’s not my job training dogs, training other people’s dogs on sheep, but I have a few students that are also friends that trust me and they come and do it with me every now and then and they are safe for the sheep.

So, so they do it and then they might not do it for a month and then when they come back it takes them a bit to calm down, but then they’re able to do it. So yeah, so herding is a great activity, but not everyone can do it, it’s not always the best choice for pet dogs.

So definitely seek out a specialist professional like yourself before we, we do hurt him.

Yeah, or someone that has, you know, ideally more, more experience than me, but expect it not to, you know, to be a big, big commitment. So

you for touching on that. If you could give one piece of advice to someone struggling with their border colleague, what would it be?

having a border collie is like having a second job. You need to really, it’s a full time job, so if you have already a full time job, it’s your second full time job.

Wow.

If, of course, you know, if you have one of those border collies that needs a bit more work you know, it takes me half a day to train, go through all mine when I train them.

And I don’t train everyone every day, but when I do, it’s my day off, but half a day is gone just to train four dogs.

Wow.

I know, Sunday should have been my day off. And I said, Oh, today I’m just going to take the afternoon off and a half past four in the afternoon, I was still outside training dogs. And I was like, Oh, okay, maybe tomorrow.

So yeah, so it’s, if you, if you’re struggling, you need to put the work in. There’s not going to be a quick fix. There’s not going to be, even if you come to me, I’m not going to give you a solution straight away that you need to commit. You need to be consistent. You need to be, you know, committed and consistent so that.

You put the work in and that’s the only way your dog is going to improve. And I know that that’s for everyone. That’s, that’s for every dog training. But because they are a work, they are a breed that needs work anyway. It’s, it’s even more important to understand that it’s not, you’re not going to do eight weeks of training and that’s, the dog is fixed.

You have a Border Collie forever.

Trainings for life.

Yeah, until they get to an age where they can start slowing down, but it’s different to everyone, you know, even if you ask me a question, when do they start slowing down? Moss is 14 and he still wants to do things, you know, if I don’t take him out for a walk, a little walk, but still a walk every day, or he spends half an hour in the paddock with the others, he’s a pain in the evening sometimes, because he’s got too much brain energy, body energy, not a lot, but brain energy is still there at 14,

Oh, bless him. And I picked, like, with a lot of train consistency is key, isn’t it?

yeah. Definitely.

what do you wish more people understood before getting their border collie?

How much work they are.

Yeah. Yeah.

I think nobody realizes until you are in it.

Yeah. Yeah.

don’t get me wrong, you can still get the one like Tay. Tay, my, my, my main working dog at the farm now. He is the easiest dog. You know, if I could clone him, it would be the perfect dog to give to all the people that wants, you know, a pet dog.

You know, he could have been a pet dog as well as a working dog, but he’s the only one of mine. over, you know, over five working dogs is the only one that really could have done both.

Yeah.

all the others just have too much to just be pet dogs.

Mm. Brilliant.

they are hard work.

work, but rewarding, I’m sure. Very

Oh, yeah, I love it. I love it. But you need to love. And the good thing is that a lot of my students, they come to me when they have no idea what training is, and then they become obsessed about training.

Yes.

they are the one that becomes really good. And then they want to learn more. And then they go into do, you know, other sports and agility or obedience or scent work or some of them, you know, started a bit of hurting with me.

So yeah, they then become obsessed because how good it is.

Brilliant. thank you. I’m going to put you on the spot now. One question I didn’t make you aware of, but we’ve got lots of fantastic guests lined up for the Yappy Hour. We’ve got vets, groomers, behaviourists, more breeds, Pacific specialists, lots of different amazing guests, including yourself. But if there was one person you think that I should invite on to the Yappy Hour, who would that be? This always gets people thinking.

Yes, so I have a very good friend, which has been in my podcast already, which I talk to pretty much every day. We send each other voice notes and she is mainly an agility trainer, but she does residential training and she does residential and she does also service training for dogs for autistic kids.

And she’s called Lila. Zawotowicz, I can send you the name because I don’t know if I pronounced it right.

sent me that I,

I’ll send you the name and she’s, you know, she’s a good friend of mine but she’s a very knowledgeable trainer and she, as I said, she does, you know, she does agility at a high level, she does residential training and she does it the right way.

The dogs live in the house with her. And, and everything. And then she does also assistant dogs training, which I find it very fascinating. And I’ve seen dogs from the beginning to the point that they are living with their kids and they help them. And they have so much skill and so much yeah, it’s amazing.

Brilliant. So yeah, she definitely sounds like really, something really interesting we need to go. So yeah, do send me some details. Martina, thank you so much. Literally my mind

You’re welcome.

so much useful information and it’s been so interesting. I’ve learned so much. If our listeners would like to find out more about you, how can they reach you?

So I have of course my website, which is thattledoacademy. com. I run my own podcast, which is the Border Collie Geek. Where I talk about Border Collies,

I was going to ask you to mention your podcast, so that’s

yeah. I also, I’m on social media as the Border Collie Geek, both on TikTok and Instagram. And I also have a Facebook group, which is free for everyone to join, which is the Border Collie Geek learning community.

So I do kind of, like, free videos and tips and, and things in that group, and I answer questions.

Yeah

of course, you know, if you need help with training, I can book you in for a discovery call and we can have a chat on zoom or on the phone. For a chat, I have online courses, all in academy is all on my website anyway.

So there’s different way to, to, to reach me and have my support. I’ve got webinars, I’ve got everything. So, you know, you can start from a webinar up to working with me. One to one training.

Oh, lovely. And just remind us of that website again.

That’ll do academy. com.

Perfect. Brilliant. Martina, thank you so much for joining me on the Yappy Hour powered by Yaply today. Honestly, I think we’re going to have to get you back in the future. I feel like we’ve only just sort of scratched the surface. I know, I know our listeners are going to find this chat so interesting.

So I really appreciate your time. Thank you so much for joining me. Today and hopefully we will get to chat again soon.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you very much

 What a fantastic conversation with Martina Miradoli. Her passion for Border Collies is truly inspiring and I hope you come away with some valuable insights. Here are a few key takeaways from today’s episode. Number one, Border Collies are incredibly intelligent and high energy dogs, which means they need both physical and mental stimulation to truly thrive.

Number two, understanding the breed’s natural instincts, especially their herding drive, is crucial to managing their behaviour in a pet home. Number three, training with patience and respect for their intelligence helps build a stronger connection and well balanced dog. Number four, Enrichment activities such as scent work and agility are excellent ways to meet a Border Collie’s needs and strengthen your bond with them.

Martina, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and experience with us today and to all our listeners. If you’re looking for more tips and advice on living with a Border Collie, be sure to check out the Ado Academy and follow Martina on social media for expert guidance. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving a review or sharing it with a fellow dog parent.

And don’t forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode of the Yappy Hour. Thanks for listening and I’ll see you next time.