Ep 7. A heartfelt approach to dog training, training for connection not compliance with Vicki Main

  📍 Welcome to The Yappy Hour powered by Yappily, the podcast for dog lovers who want to build better relationships with their furry companions. I’m your host Nathan Dunleavy, and in today’s episode I’m joined by the wonderful, beautiful, Vicki Main from Love Your Paws. Vicki is a kind and caring and compassionate dog trainer who’s all about training for connection, not compliance.

We talk about shifting the narrative from fixing behaviours to building relationships. The importance of breed appropriate enrichment and how understanding a dog’s perspective leads to better training outcomes. Whether you have a sensitive dog or you just want to strengthen your bond, this episode is packed with invaluable insights.

 Welcome back to the Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily. I’m your host, Nathan Dunleavy, and I’m so excited to bring you another episode today. We have the very amazing Vicki Main with us today. I have said Main, right, haven’t I? Because I was, I was, I’ve known you all these years and I have, I’ve, I’ve always been getting your surname wrong.

So we have the very lovely Vicki Main from Love Your Paws. I’m down in the beautiful place of Cornwall. Vicki’s a dog trainer and we’re going to have a chat about all things dog training And in particular about how her sensitive dog Sam kind of shapes Vicki’s approach and got her into dog training so i’m so excited to have Vicki with us today.

She’s a colleague and a personal friend of mine. So Vicki Welcome to the yappy hour. How are you doing today?

I’m doing good, thank you. Yeah, thank you for asking me to be here. It’s been a tricky couple of days because Sam, who you’ve already mentioned, actually had a vestibular episode,

Yes

the other day, which For those people who’ve never heard of one, because I hadn’t really heard of one, I thought it had a stroke and the symptoms are quite similar.

So he’s been a little bit wobbly and feeling a little bit sick and off colour. So I’m a bit of a busy with that really.

I didn’t know what it was until you said the other day about it I had never heard of it before so bless you bless bless him. Oh, okay so Vicki for those who might who might not know Can you share a little bit about you your business love your paws, which I love the business name And what inspired you to start it?

Silence. Silence. Silence.

so she was my little American dog. then, you know, life changed and we moved back to the UK. And Ness obviously came with us, made that big old journey on her own. And. Then we settled in Cornwall and not really knowing what to do having you know, abroad for so many years and done so many different things.

I knew I wanted to work with people, but I didn’t know in what way. So I went back to uni to do a social work degree when I was 40. And the whole, and just before I started my degree, we had well, from Sam into the family as well. So came to us as, around about eight months old, bought a collie, he, I think he ended our lives like an absolute whirlwind. We just had no idea what to do, how to cope with him,

Silence.

and talking about choice and all of these things that relate to social work. I wasn’t doing what I was supposed to do, which was relating it to humans. I was relating everything that I

Silence. Silence.

jobs. I actually went to work for a local dog rescue, our local National Animal Welfare Trust branch,

Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence.

a dog walking business. To learn more about dogs and to be with dogs. And whilst doing that, I put myself through lots of courses. So, you know, I did lots of IMDT courses and then to work for local behaviourist who is fantastic and you know, helped run her puppy classes and learnt so much from her.

Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence.

Group training classes. And I kind of take things that I’ve learned from the people I’ve worked with, the courses I’ve been on you know, the amazing people I’ve worked with at the rescue centre and mostly from Sam and Ness, and kind of put all of that together, I think.

Silence. Silence. Silence. Yeah.

around dogs and dog training and somehow through no plan, like specific aim, I’ve somehow managed to do that.

Wow.

I always use the hashtag thoughtful dog training because it’s the best way I could describe it.

Yeah.

in a not so succinct nutshell, that’s what I do. I

Brilliant. Yeah. We’re going to be talking about your classes and obviously how Sam inspired you as well. So, I mean, yeah, what a journey you know, from traveling abroad and doing the ski seasons and doing your, I love it that you like, you’ve done your degree and then like, you’ve not gone into that field, but you’ve, You’ve used that to then shape your, you know, your career as a dog trainer.

So Vicki, we meant,

I don’t actually think I would understand as much as I understand about dogs and people and how the two relate had I not done my degree.

yeah,

have never gone into social work, like, it’s taught me so much and it’s been invaluable for what I do. Absolutely.

And obviously dealing with like you know dog parents as well, and members of the public and stuff that can all come in handy.

Also I’m a qualified life coach as well, which also, you know, really comes in helpful for like working with people.

Yeah, definitely. So you mentioned that one of your dogs, Sam is sensitive and he struggles with life. How has living with and training a sensitive dog shaped your approach and philosophy?

Take on rescue dogs, who, or any dog, who ends up finding life difficult. We don’t know where to start and we don’t know what to do. I mean, Sam came to us from a rescue and he Literally, from the day he came into our home, he put himself into a corner to protect himself and he wouldn’t let us approach him, and I just did not know how, had no idea how to help him. We felt really hopeless, helpless and hopeless. But every dog deals with that situation differently, right? And Sam’s way of reacting to it, I didn’t even understand existed before I was there. So for example, if you wanted to pop Sam’s lead on, he would put himself in a corner and protect himself, and he would snarl and growl, and you, you know, tried to go close to him with his lead, he would bite. And he just had lots of really behaviours now that I understand that he just was overwhelmed and not coping,

Okay. very much.

Didn’t want to be touched, and so we went to work with

Yes,

she probably was. She’d been around for a long time, and she helped, helped understand Sam a lot in the beginning. You know, he just said to me, stop walking him, just let him settle, and all of these things, I was just a regular normal dog person, felt counterintuitive the time. I mean, so I was 13 now, so this was sort of like, 13 and a half, this was 13 years ago. And he just said, stop walking him, you know, let him have time. All of these things. and then I met a couple of behaviourists who worked the local rescue and they helped me massively with Sam to understand him. I started to understand body language. He didn’t give you lots of warning when he was going to He would just bite. I’m sure there were signs, but at that point, you

we missed him

yeah, there was no sort of growl and then warning. It was just,

just, yeah.

struggled with touch, with noise, with leaves, with, And I think it was all fear based. You know, we got to a place after about 18 months where it felt like he started to trust us. little more, he was more settled. I felt a little bit more comfortable walking him, although walking him was quite scary at times because he would be sort of quite explosive if people looked at him. taking him to the vets was always good. But yeah, over the years we learned how to help Sam. feel safe with us and know when to leave him alone and learn about him.

And I think the biggest turning point actually was finding scent work, tracking and scent work, which really just helps build his confidence and my understanding of his body language as well, I think. So yeah, now he’s 13 and a half, he’s older, he still tells you when he doesn’t want something, he’s very clear. But yeah,

You understand him a lot better now and he landed on his paws with you guys.

We’ve had, you know, a brilliant vet who supported us all the way through, and Carolyn who was kind of my mentor as a behaviourist, she’s always been really supportive. And a few years ago, we did end up seeking the support of a vet behaviourist as well. Just because our vet wasn’t sure what to do next to help him and felt like we’d reached a sort of a bit of a plateau. working with a vet behaviourist was super helpful just to know that we’d been doing a lot of the right things, but then also to have that extra support and that’s the difference. Yeah.

good. Brilliant. So your philosophy, that’s such a big word. I was thinking, God, am I going to be able to pronounce this word? Your philosophy is all about training for connection, not compliance. Can you explain what that means and why it’s so important? I

I think, I think there’s, I always talk to my customers about like the dog trainer manual in the sky. So there’s this dog trainer manual that lives up in the sky and you know, we go get a rescue dog or a puppy or, you know, a dog joins our family and this book in the sky opens up and it just spews all its knowledge into us. into us. And the dog trainer manual is made up of, you know, all of our experiences that we’ve ever had with dogs, you know, our family dogs or our neighbor’s dogs, things that we learned, you know, maybe going to dog training as kids or whatever. And things now that we see on social media and all the different dog training programs that we’ve all watched over the years, all of that fits in that dog trainer manual and it opens up,

don’t understand.

And, you know, there’s nothing wrong particularly with teaching our dogs how to sit.

You know, it’s not a bad thing to teach our dogs how to sit. But don’t think any of us take the time to think about why we teach our dogs to sit. You know, what’s the purpose of teaching our dogs to sit? And everybody, you know, whenever I ask this question, they’ll say things like, well, It stops them jumping up.

It means they won’t walk into the road. of these things. but I don’t need to sit to not jump up and I don’t need to sit to not run out into the road in front of a car. I don’t need to, you know, we, we just use sit because we’ve always used sit and there’s actually no need. So I think it’s that thinking about. Why we teach our dogs things and what does that behaviour serve our dogs?

Mm.

It’s about, you know, if we understand our dogs and we’ve got a good connection with our dogs then we have built that really lovely rapport and a relationship with them. We don’t need to ask them to sit. We can just ask them to a moment or they just know that when we pause, they pause before stepping out into the road. for example. So, yeah, I think that, yeah, just thinking about our dogs, you know, often I can’t, you see people asking their dog to sit and they don’t, so they sit again, and their dog doesn’t sit, they sit again, and you’re like, oh,

Sit, sit, sit, and it’s

why your

productive,

sitting, you know, there’s so many reasons, maybe they’re in pain, maybe they’re a little bit overwhelmed by the situation that they’re in, maybe sitting at the edge of a road with a bus flying past them is actually, utterly terrifying and they just don’t want to

yeah, scary, yeah, I know, mmm.

to sit. And why should they? And if we’re making them sit, that’s for human ego, not the sake of our dog in that moment. And I kind of sometimes feel like I’m really contradictory, because I’m a dog trainer and I teach dog training classes, and we do teach puppies how to sit. And, you know, I don’t spend a lot of time doing that, but we do kind of think about teaching SIT. But then at the same time, I’m never going to force my dog to SIT. If I ask them to SIT and they don’t, I’m like, well, that’s alright. So for me, I think it’s about the thought process of what we’re doing, rather than just doing it for

And you know, sometimes you see him like they’ve sort of pushed down on their back and, you know, I think we’re just conditioned to think, Oh, I must teach my dog to sit. And then, you know, I’ll push him down the back. They don’t realize we push down the back that that’s not good. And I personally wouldn’t want to sit my bum on a cold floor either.

So, so how about you do it? And I think that leads nicely where you said like into your sort of like your mantra, you’ve coined the phrase of thoughtful. Dog training, and I love that. I really love that.

Yeah, think it’s just about, just having that thought process about why we’re asking our dog what we’re asking them to do. And I do kind of catch myself. You know, thinking, it’s good to do that. But I mean, obviously like the safety thing, so I, you know, I think there’s some people who live with their dogs and don’t ever particularly teach them a skill because they just live so fluently and fluently together and I think that’s utterly wonderful and amazing. but I think that in the hubbub of busy family life and everything else, you know, that’s not possible for a lot of people. So I think, you know, teaching our dogs the skills that they need to be successful you know, within a family is really important. We don’t want to open the front door and our dogs run out and things like that.

So yeah, I think, you know, there are things that are beneficial for our dogs for us to teach them, but it’s just about having that bit of thought behind why we’re doing it.

Yeah, definitely. Thank you. So we’re going to be moving on to our next section now, which is shifting the narrative from fixing to building. You’re a strong advocate for group classes when they’re thoughtfully designed. How do these classes support the connection between dogs and their caregivers?

In, in, in the environment that they’re in. So I’m really lucky. I, you know, I’ve got a field attached to my garden, so I do have, you know, our own space that’s private. And so all of my classes run in there. And, you know, it’s a maximum of six dogs. really well spread out. and we spend a lot of our class often just talking about, oh, what’s in the dogs and thinking about what the dogs are doing.

So last week, for example, we had a class where most of the dogs were sort of between five and 18 months old. So a timer, typically they can be a little bit challenging for their families because they’re struggling with life because of adolescence and you know that’s quite tricky to deal with. And we were kind of working on lead walking and just being able to walk past other dogs on lead and you know it being no big deal. We’re just working on, you know, just being calm and connected to their owners despite what’s going on around them. And we kind of gradually build up the behaviours, and each dog was working at each dog’s level. So some dogs get super excited when they get close to another dog, and then they can’t cope and other dogs can get a little closer, so we tailor everything for each dog. the end of the class, everybody’s talking about how they thought their dogs had done, or in what areas they thought their dogs had done better than others. And I asked them, you know, what have we taught the dogs today? You know, like, specifically what skills have we taught them? And they all sat there and had a think.

And realised that we hadn’t, we hadn’t actually done anything. We hadn’t used any keywords, we hadn’t lured, we hadn’t done anything. I had just spent the class kind of getting, telling the people to do different things. And then the dogs do that with them. So

Get more and more, you know, behaviours towards that end, you know, desired goal that we’re looking for. And so we can just create an environment where dogs are able to learn, despite what’s going on around them, because basically that’s what they’ve got to do in the real world, right? And it’s difficult then, absolutely, to move from the class to the real world, but you have to start somewhere. I think that’s a really nice place to start, and I particularly like it because then we always give the people a chance to chat. All of them are always feeling the same, you know, often people have, you know, we all know that the puppy owners are going to say the seven o’clock witching hour, how do we stop it, you know, and it’s really helpful to know that it’s not just you that’s experiencing that that’s why I love the community side of it is so that people can chat through at the end of a group class and not feel alone and talk about what helps them or a walk that they found nice and calming for their adolescent dog and all of that type of stuff.

Yeah, it’s lovely. Nice to create a a great sense of community and it is, you know, it’s quite a scary thing, you know, with a puppy and stuff. So it’s nice that you’ve got the support like function there with others. Yeah. Thank you. So traditional training often focuses on. Fixing problem behaviours.

Why do you think this mindset needs to shift?

Well, when we talk about a behaviour that needs to be fixed, we’re saying that that behaviour is wrong somehow. And I don’t think we should be thinking of behaviour as right or wrong or good or bad. behaviour is behaviour. And it’s information, isn’t it? It’s just understanding. I choose, like, I’ve made a really sort of, purposeful decision to not work with behaviour per se. I’m not a behaviourist even though I study it all the time.

You hear me Beth?

thank you. Because I think With training and group training classes, for example, if people learn more about their dogs and how to work with their dogs and think about their dog’s body language and have this more thoughtful approach we can Stop behavioural challenges from happening. Now, not always, of course not always, because, you know, we can’t ever predict what’s going to happen and we can’t change the life experiences that dogs have, dogs have that might create some of these behavioural challenges that people face with their dogs. But if we understand more about our dogs in the first place, I really think that a lot of those challenges could be minimized or, or not happen at all. I

Mm.

I know that I could have prevented of Sam’s behaviour from escalating. Like if I had Sam now and not 13 years ago, I think our relationship would have been different and he might have had a different experience of life.

Mm.

And so I think if we understand our dog and where our dog’s coming from, and if we understand that it’s easier to advocate for them, I think there’s so much worry of judgment, isn’t there?

Yeah.

of judgment when you’ve got a dog who’s

Mm.

or barking or lunging or doing, you know, whatever that dog does when they’re feeling whatever

Mm.

That we often don’t behave in the way that’s the most supportive of our dog. so yes, of course, we can do all sorts of things to try and shut down that reaction or that behaviour in the moment, but it’s not fixing the problem. I’ve actually had a really lovely example yesterday, and hopefully you won’t mind me talking about it. I’ve got we call it the Training Hub.

It’s a Facebook group for any customer that I’ve ever had. And we’ve got sort of about 400 people in there.

Oh wow.

the end of last year, we ran a muzzle training month. Just, I think it was September, October, you know, weather rubbish, let’s do something, you know, better with a dog. so everybody just who wants to joins in with muzzle training. And one of the has a rescue dog and they just had a really horrible experience at the vet. Charlie had really struggled at the vet and had had to be, I think she had to be muzzled because, you know, everything was really stressful. So her mum decided to, there’s me using the word mum, I don’t even know what to call us, dog owners, caregivers, I never know. She thought, right, well, perfect timing. I’m going to do this muzzle training challenge. And she just really went for it, you know, took it slowly, took it at Charlie’s pace, built it up. And she left a really lovely little post in our training hub yesterday saying how, Charlie has had an amazing visit at the vet.

Hadn’t reacted. had been And it had all been because he had practiced the muzzle training. Charlie’s now more than comfortable wearing a muzzle for sort of 20 30 minutes at a time. She didn’t stress about having the muzzle on, so the muzzle wasn’t an added stress in that situation. Because she was muzzled, everybody handling her was able to feel calmer, which would also help her feel calm. And so it’s just that kind of You know, that could have been another massive behavioural challenge for that dog, because the owner had taken the time to work through something that she knew could help her, it turned out that the, you know, she ended up being able to have her vaccinations and everything else in there, you know, no stress for anybody. I think, yeah, I just like that as an example for, rather than trying to fix the behaviour, let’s work underneath it and build the confidence and the skills of the owners and the confidence of the dog instead.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I love muzzle training. We might be having an episode soon about muzzle training, not just muzzle training, but watch your space. But I was saying how muzzle training is important. I, I used to teach it when I did in person stuff for my puppy classes. I used to teach muzzle training to my puppies and their owners, because it’s.

You know, it’s not to be a, it’s not to be looked upon as a bad thing, a dog wearing a muzzle because you instantly kind of get put off, you know, you think it’s aggressive, but there’s tons of reasons why a dog could be wearing a muzzle.

And you know, the actual process of muzzle training is actually a really lovely bonding experience, because to build the confidence in wearing a muzzle is that can be for most dogs a really slow process and you start to really learn and understand your dog by doing it. So Lady Caroline has obviously got to a stage with Charlie where Charlie can wear a muzzle. At the vets now. I did the challenge at the same time as Lockie, who’s my Spaniel pup. She’s 18, well over 18 months old now, and we’re, she’s now, we’re still, we’re still going. She’s happy now to put her nose into the muzzle, but she won’t, she won’t tolerate me doing the flaps. So now I’m starting to think about different ways to make her feel comfortable.

Rather than me just putting the straps off, I’m just starting to gently touch her ear whilst her noses in the muzzle. So, it really gets you started thinking about how can you make that dog feel comfortable. And when we’re listening to them, they’re more trusting of us. And so, yeah, the end result is you have a dog who’s comfortable to wear muzzle should they ever need to for whatever situation. But also, the process is really bonding and you really get the

Mm hmm.

a lovely bit of training if you do it right.

Yeah, I love it. And I think it comes back to like you said, where you said about listening to your dog, it’s, it’s also about reading and understanding their body language, isn’t it? Cause that’s how they communicate to us. So,

Yeah, and it’s so much about that. And I think it’s another reason why group classes can work so well, because we know that adolescent dogs, particularly, and puppies, when they’re overwhelmed or when they’re stressed or when they’re not coping with the environment, that behaviour can look very much like excitement. And if children, for example, are excited and it’s inappropriate in that moment, they might just be told to calm down. And we do that with our dogs, but we’re missing the point because your dog isn’t excited, your dog is struggling. And so understanding the subtleties, so in classes, I often will be narrating through what I’m seeing with the dogs as well, so that everybody starts to understand why we’re doing what we’re doing and what it is that I’m seeing. So they can see it not only in their dogs, but other dogs that their dogs interact with as well.

Yeah, yeah, brilliant. How does focusing on connection instead of compliance change the dynamic between a dog and their caregiver?

They’re, they’re just the relationship changes because it’s not just about shouting sit at your dog. You know, it’s about understanding your dog and building that relationship with the individual in front of you. Because, you know, no two dogs are the same, are they? I always, We often talk about the no challenge, but I think we there’s certain things that people know that they want their dogs to be able to do, you know, I don’t know, walk nice on a leash, come back when called, not run out of the back door when they open it, but then we all know that each individual dog is going to come up with behaviours that we never even thought, thought about, it didn’t even ever cross our minds, and we think, oh, we’re going to have to train for that, oh, and we have to train for that, And so I get puppy owners often to make up a no list. time they think about saying no to their dog, they have to just think, okay, what’s my dog doing? Why don’t I like it? Why am I about to say no? And then write that down on their training list so that they can think of a way of teaching their dog to do what they would like in that situation as opposed to just going, ah, or no, or whatever it is. What was the question again? Bye.

How does focusing on connection instead of compliance change the dynamic between,

when we’re doing that, we’re thinking about why we need to teach our dog things rather than just teaching them. Everything changes because we’re thinking about that dog and the individual in front of us and it becomes much more, I don’t know, I think it becomes just much more fluid and fluent, isn’t it?

About being with somebody who you understand rather than being in a dictatorship.

yeah, just strengthens that, that bond, you know, builds on that relationship, strengthens that bond. Okay, moving on to our next section, it’s all about understanding a dog’s perspective. So you work with some working breed. of dogs and you’re responsible for activities like scent work trailing tracking.

How can these types of activities deepen the connection between a dog and their caregiver?

So, I think We don’t always, you know, humans who live with dogs, we don’t always think about how our dogs perceive the world. and I think lead walking spaniels is really good. Way of looking at this. So,

Yeah.

bred Spaniels to zigzag. Like, literally,

Yeah.

to zigzag to go and find you know, to put up birds.

And they zigzagged, you

That

quarter to

is down, isn’t it, and off they go.

put them on a lead. And as a human, we’re going to walk in a straight line, we’re going to come out of, you know, the front gate, we’re going to turn left, we know where we’re going for our walk, and we’re going to walk on the footpath, and we’re going to stop to cross the road, we’re going to do all of those things that are governed by human convention. And we’re going to use our eyes, mostly, and our ears a little bit, but mostly our eyes to do all of that. And our dogs see the world so completely differently. They come out of the gates and it’s like, neighbor’s cat has been in there. Oh, nobody’s making bread rat. And you know, and they’re,

They smell.

and then we just expect them to walk in a straight line along a footpath because that’s what we do.

Mmm.

And you know, the dogs just don’t move through the environment the way humans do. And. Yeah, older dogs start to because we condition them to do that because that’s what we do. It’s not how dogs naturally move. And so when we just, from the start, think about how dogs perceive the environment, then training becomes easier because we stop getting frustrated with our spinal for zigzagging. We don’t totally stop getting frustrated. Like, it’s still frustrating when it’s trying to walk a Cocker Spaniel who’s zigzagging. it helps to be when you start to understand why they’re doing that and then you work together. to learn how to walk on a loose leaf. so activities like tracking and trailing and scent work really help you to understand that body language because

Mmm.

dogs smell is their primary scent.

That’s it.

so whether it’s a working breed or not a working breed, If you start doing scent work with them, any form of nose work at all, you just start to really

Huh. Yes.

You know, that we ask different questions. And at the end of tracking and trailing, the answer is often the thing that they’ve, I’ve got the most out of is a

Also these activities, not only do they help us understand our dogs who are watching them, but these activities get into the bones of who our dogs are. we’re letting them show us how incredible they are, and

Hello. Hello. Hey.

I don’t know that they love us, but you know what I mean, we’ve created an opportunity for them. Like, I mean, I do Sent working tracking and trailing with my dog, like in my free time, as well as teaching it. there’s nothing better after, you know, doing a trail with Lachie. She gets so excited and she just wants to go, oh, look how amazing that was. With Sam, you know, watching him work, you know, even as a young dog, he was, he’s just phenomenally talented. And he’s a border collie. He used to do everything to a gazillion miles an hour, except tracking. was so thoughtful and steady and, this is what we’re doing. And it’s just amazing to

Yeah,

been a working dog because he’s terrified of sheep. It’s

world through their nose and obviously all that nose work and sniffing is really good for brain and mental stimulation helps tire them out bring their arousal levels down. Like 20 minutes nose work is just the same as a 60 minute outdoor walk in terms of the brain and mental stimulation they get.

So you end up just with a more calmer dog.

true, if we if we tap into it properly, that is definitely true, yeah. It’s really stimulating and empowering for them. But I think it’s so much more than that. You know, we, we talk a lot about how it’s, you know, mentally stimulating and tiring, but I think it’s more it gets into the heart of who they are.

Mm

when dogs have achieved their find, whether that’s, you know, tracking or trailing or whatever, barn hunt, not something I’ve ever done, but, you know, I’ve watched videos and, you know, little terriers doing barn hunt. I mean, that’s absolutely getting into, like, their heart and soul, isn’t it? And when we can do that. So all of these dogs were bred for a

hmm.

to, you know, help on farms or to go till rats or to do whatever it was they were bred to do, and then they come and live in our pet homes

Yeah.

without those jobs. Don’t know, I think it would be like having a passion to sing and living in a family who won’t ever let you sing or, you know, something like that.

And if any individual is given an opportunity to do whatever it is that makes their heart sing, then they are just a happier being, aren’t they? They’re

Yeah,

and joyful and have best relationships with the people around them because they’re able to express themselves. And I

just not,

our dogs.

it’s nice to see that sense of satisfaction and achievement that they get from it. So

get so excited, like Sam, you know, he’s riddled with arthritis and he’s, you know, really stiff. He refuses to go for walks these days, he just isn’t interested.

All right, that’s okay.

it’s absolutely okay. But I have to put him on lead now to do any scent work because he will try and run. If I say to him, I’ve hidden some stuff, go find. He goes off at 100 miles an hour, forgetting that his legs don’t do

And then his joints are aching afterwards.

Yeah

Vicki, what would you say are the common miscommunications that you see between dogs and their caregivers? Yeah.

actually they’re kind of overwhelmed and, and worried. And, and then the other, like we’ve talked about, you know, just trying to get dogs think to do things because we think they could. is that whole, I don’t know, sit before I give you a. Yeah, I think it’s just, when we just have a moment to think about the dog, isn’t it? I there’s a lot, I don’t know how to word it, there’s a lot of human ego at

Yeah. No, you’re right. You’re right.

think that

Yeah.

A lot of it, you know. wanting to have the dog who,

The perfect dog.

yeah, the perfect dog or who sits on his own to sit off. And there’s lots of things we do, you know, need for their safety. And I think for our dogs to be able to live as dogs, they need to have a good people and all of those good things that we can allow them to have this freedom to be dogs.

But I think the communication and breakdown comes from human ego. You know, it’s our right to have a pet dog and the pet dog comes into our home and they should respect and obey and yeah, whereas if we see them as a valued family member and we take the time to understand them and learn their

Mm. Mm.

Know, I think the majority of pet dog owners are not that savvy on body language and unfortunately are probably not as savvy as body language as they think they are because there’s so many misconceptions with that.

There is.

Human ego doesn’t allow us to just step back and, and, and learn it because if we did step back and learn it you know, our dog would have a happier with them.

Yeah. We

I mean, we met when we did our separation anxiety course together.

did. We did.

always say to me, oh yeah, they bark when we’re out, but that’s just what they do. You know, that type of miscommunication, that’s the type of thing that I, you know, would love for us to be able to get over to people that, know, when our dogs are talking that we should really listen.

Yeah, we should listen and observe as well.

Part of communication, isn’t it? With humans as well, it’s about, you know, listening and watching and all of that as much as talking. And I think, I mean, I’m the worst for talking, but I think we just talk to the dogs too much rather than, yeah.

I, I think everyone’s just everyone’s just in too much of a rush nowadays and they just don’t take a moment to sort of pause and stop and, and just be a bit more mindful and you know, everyone’s just on the go and I

to fit in with that lifestyle. You know, I like, I remember like we had spaniels as kids and those spaniels would never have been expected to go and sit in a cafe. They probably want to go on a school run.

Know we’re putting them into all these situations and just expecting them to cope.

I think the most my dogs. Parents dogs did was, I think they used to go to the pub with my dad.

It was there. The night time we happened to be five minutes from the pub.

Really? Oh, that’s cool. I love that. So if pet parents could make one small change to better understand their dog’s world, I think we’ve sort of covered it, but what would you recommend?

I think just finding that one thing that really gets into their dogs feel good. You know, whatever that is. So, you know, whether that’s some kind of scent work or agility or hoopers or tracking, trailing. I don’t think it matters. what it is, but find something that your dog loves, or all of them, you know.

I’ve got so many customers who do little bits of lots of things with their dogs. And because all of them helps your training in general. You know, if you do hoopers, that’s so great for recall and focus and connection and scent work, I think your dogs feel good and, you know, finding something that your, that your dog loves. Because if your dog loves it, I’m pretty damn much guaranteed that, you know, the human would love it too. And when

Yeah.

yeah, it’s just magic, isn’t it?

Fun. Have some fun. Brilliant. Thank you for that. So we’re going to move on to our next discussion point now, and that is all around practical tips for training for connection. Would you what role does enrichment like scent work or trailing or tracking play in creating meaningful lives for dogs?

So, I think this is often more,

Yeah. Big believer in less is more.

you know, I think so in all sorts of ways, so like, you know, little short training sessions that are fun not expecting too much too soon of our dogs, letting them build strong foundations before we ask any more of them. building things and slowly. And, well, remind me of the question again. Sorry, I go off on so many tangents that my

Well, no, it’s absolutely fine. So what role does enrichment, so like scent work, tracking, trailing, what does that play in creating meaningful lives for dogs?

We’re just giving them the ability to feel satiated and that they have a meaningful life. I actually did a post on my Facebook about enrichment yesterday, the day before. I think it was an enrichment day. day for everything now, isn’t it?

Oh, right, okay. That’s

Now people use the word enrichment and stick a lickymat down in front of their dog.

not what it’s about, is it really?

no, like, there’s nothing wrong with lickymats.

No,

know, white dogs have lickymats and,

Yeah, mine, mine, mine have their dinner on Lickymats, yeah.

But it’s not enrichment. So I think when we do things like scent work, like I said, we’re getting into what really makes that dog a dog. And so, You know, of mine who do agility and scent work will say that their dogs will be calmer and sort of more satiated and restful tired after scent work than after agility because obviously, you know, the sports where you’re working together like agility and stuff can be fantastic, you know, for dogs and handlers, but they had raised, you know, adrenaline and they’re all fast and it’s it’s a very much a man made sport. Whereas the nose work type sports is where, yeah, we’re sort of putting human parameters around. An inherent skill of our dog, so it just creates a calmer, more satiated attire, if that makes sense.

Yeah, definitely. And I think it just gives them purpose as well. More purpose.

Absolutely gives some purpose. So you know, You see dogs who have for example, there’s one of the dogs who does loads of trailing with us. The only time she ever wears a harness is for trailing. Her, you know, owner chooses just to have her on a collar all of the time. as soon as that harness goes on her, she knows what she’s about to do and she gets excited. So you can see that they enjoy those activities because the piece of equipment that kind of goes along with it. Oh. You know, well, we all know that when you put your walking boots on and dogs are so safe that when they go out for a walk they get excited. So like, you know, we know what our dogs enjoy. and yeah, so creating a purpose and having activities that we do together that our dogs enjoy. And, you know, I just see people who have Labradors or German Shepherds or, you know, whatever breed, and that dog goes, you know, to the park for a walk in the morning and round the block in the evening and that’s their life, well, the dog’s well loved and, you know. Has a family who cares for it and is exercised but I don’t know I feel for dogs like that who don’t have that extra, you know, opportunity to really be a dog, you know. I

Yeah. Okay.

And that’s, I don’t know, I think, I think they deserve more

Yeah, definitely. Brilliant.

about giving

for someone that’s just starting out with a connection based training approach, what’s one small but impactful thing that they can do today?

dogs more time to think.

I’m not talking at them. So there’s this little exercise I do, and I don’t know where I got it from originally. I’m sure it’s not an original of mine because I don’t know that any of us have anything original, but you know, we all find different exercises that work, but this is my like all time favorite. I just call it the focus game. And I’ve seen it done in a number of different ways. But the way that I like to do it is you just let your dog know that you have an old piece of food, and you just really gently drop it to the floor, to one side, and you let your dog look for it. But we don’t say under, and we don’t say under. point at it and we don’t encourage them, we just let them look for it. Once they’ve found it, nine times out of ten, even though it’s the first time they’ve ever played the game, your dog is going to just look up at you and go, whoops, did you see that? And if we just capture that little moment that they look up at us, with just a little marker word like this, And then drop a piece of food to our other side, not throw it, just super gentle, drop a piece of food to our other side, let them look for it, sniff, snuffle, it doesn’t matter how long it takes, they look up at us and repeat. If we do that for a few minutes, every day, in lots of different places. It just helps your connection. doing so many things, it’s the simplest thing. And we do it in almost, well, you know, people who come to classes will do that every other week or so because we do do it

Silence. Silence. Silence.

They find a little piece of food and that’s just kind of like the cherry on top of the cake. So sniffing for most dogs is the important part. They look up at you, they’re a trusted person. All you do is acknowledge them with the word good. We don’t need any head ruffles or good gills or just good. Add another piece of food and we’re just saying, we’re acknowledging that they’ve done something lovely. we’re recreating that experience, which is really lovely and safe and grounding and it’s an exercise that helps build into lead walking, recall, mean, literally anything and everything that you do with your dog, because you’re encouraging eye contact without asking them to look at you,

Okay. very much. Yeah. Yeah.

turn

Silence. Silence. Silence.

find it, find it, find it, good dog, woo! They just slow down everything that they do and just a marker word. They’re giving their dog time, and

Mm,

thing, because we just, we do things too quickly.

we do.

favourite exercise for building calm and connection and focus in different situations and something I

Yeah.

dog pretty much every day.

Yeah. I think we take it for granted, don’t we? Time. So . Brilliant. So setbacks are, are inevitable in any training journey. How can pet parents handle these moments without losing trust or connection?

I think when we have setbacks it depends on what it is you’re trying to achieve in that moment it’s usually down to us and not our dog and if we can just take a pause and think about that stops us putting everything on our dog. So I think we’ve kind of I was going to say we blame them, that’s maybe the wrong word, but yeah, we often blame them for not getting it right.

We blame them for being silly or we blame them for challenging us in

Silence. Silence. Silence.

we’re trying to teach our dog, who’s the learner in that situation, have we made it clear to them, do they understand and are, are, are we being motivating enough? One of the things that I say, think it’s that dog trainer manual in the sky again, as soon as people start teaching their dog a specific skill, we all turn into bloody Barbara Woodhouse. Who knows it? Who’s in a quite even diaper? Who’s in a quite even diaper? Like, the gentlest and kindest of people, and I don’t mean like that old school, you know, proper Barbara Woodhouse, but we all get really serious and if they don’t get right, you know, you see people get really frustrated and their voice is starting to get a little bit firmer and, you know, if we say sit and now the dog doesn’t say sit, like we say sit a little bit harsher and I’m like, oh. So I would say, you know, our dogs are not choosing to learn. want them. They’re not university students. They’ve gone, yeah, I

Silence.

you know,

Silence. Silence. Silence. Okay. very much.

as much fun for them as us.

Like, and if it’s not fun, why are we doing it? So, yeah.

Yeah, I always used to just say in my puppy class is like, you know, short and sweet, little little sessions, but to have fun. The moment you stop having fun, then you need to just forget and come back to it.

Yeah, as soon as you start to hear that, like, tone in your voice come in. think primary school teacher, not the university lecturer.

Definitely. Vicki, thank you. We’re gonna start wrapping up this episode. It’s literally flown by the last hour so we’re going to spend the next sort of five or so minutes just for some final questions. And yeah, so many pet parents feel guilty or frustrated when they face setbacks in training.

What would you just say to someone who’s feeling stuck but wants to do right by their dog?

I would say talk it through with somebody. And, you know, I find this myself as well. You know, you’re trying to teach your dog something or you know there’s something they’re doing with your dog. And when it’s just you and your dog, you can get really stuck in it. So you know, if you going through a dog trainer, just sit and have a chat with them or have a chat with a, a friend who might be a dog owner. or trainer or whoever and walk it through because, you know, two brains

Yeah.

need to, you know, have a fresh perspective on it.

I know that there was when Lockie was little I was starting to feel like that, you know, I felt a lot of pressure from people like, oh, she’s going to be the best trade dog ever.

And I thought, oh, she probably isn’t. But now I feel like maybe she has to be.

Oh, no, it’s never the way. Okay. Okay.

bit yeah, like, hard on myself and, know, a friend of ours actually, Charlotte says to me, she’s a puppy, just stop, just have fun, just have fun. And I say, oh yeah, that’s right. Oh, I forgot that bit. So sometimes you just need somebody, you know, that fresh perspective.

That would be my advice.

Definitely what would be the one piece of advice you’d give to someone feeling overwhelmed by their dog’s behaviour, but they’re eager to build a stronger connection?

I would say do the focus game. I can’t think

focus games sounds fun.

own behaviour that, you know, just pausing and doing the focus game doesn’t help. And if you’re feeling overwhelmed in that, in the minute because your dog is doing something that you’re like worried about in that moment, like if they’re barking or lunging or if they’re like bouncing up at you, like, you know, we know a lot of adolescent dogs can do. often that what you need to do is change the environment and change environment in that moment quite quickly. So it’s not necessarily about training sometimes in that moment, if you just need to change what’s happening so that you can calm down to help your dog, you just have to change the picture. So changing the picture in that moment might just be to sprinkle some cheese on the ground.

Yeah.

be just you turn and get your dog out of the situation that they’re in. It might be just call the walk off that day and just go home. And yeah, change whatever is happening in that moment to help your dog feel calmer. But the only way you can help your dog feel calmer is if you just take a moment to calm down yourself. and often. So the focus game can be great for that otherwise

Take,

the same answer as before, you know, chat it through with somebody else and see if you can get

yeah, take a breath and play the focus game. If Vicki, if there’s one message you would like dog parents to take away from this conversation, what would it be?

think it would be to learn who your dog is and make sure they have opportunities to do the thing that makes their heart sing.

Hmm.

Nothing better than seeing your dog’s heart sing. Honestly, that’s the best. Feeling in the world, and through doing so, you just start to learn about your dog. And also just in general being a little more thoughtful every day about how your dog experiences the world and how we can support that and make

Yeah.

world the best place for them.

Yeah. Comes back to thoughtful dog training again. I love that.

Our dogs haven’t chosen they live, have they? They’re captive animals. don’t choose who to live with, where they live. Where they go for their walks, where they sleep, what they eat. You know, it’s our responsibility to them the best possible life we can. to do that, it’s about being thoughtful about who they are and how we can meet their needs as a breed.

You know, they’re not humans, they’re dogs. And we need to, know, meet that species specific needs that they have.

Yeah, brilliant. Wow, God, we’ve, we’ve covered lots of this evening. So Vicki, putting you on the spot, we’ve got lots of guests lined up for the Yappy Hour. I’ve booked lots of different people in. We’ve got vets, groomers, behaviours, trainers. We’ve got people that do hoopers and Lots of different people.

But if there was one person you’d think we should invite onto the Yappy Hour, who would that be and why?

Oh my God, that’s a question.

A lot of people get stuck and then they give me like about five people. Yeah, but just one person you think we should invite? Yeah, we should invite onto, oh, however many you want.

There’s so many incredible people out there working with dogs, aren’t there? As you know, is really terrible because I’ve forgotten the lady’s name. I so last year or the year before, I did a tent work course with Sally Gutteridge, who, Sally Smith, who, if you haven’t got lined up, I’d be very surprised if you haven’t, but she could absolutely go on here.

Oh, who knows? Who knows?

And I’ll tell you quickly why I think Sally should be on here. It’s because Sally’s way of about dogs is just incredible. And it’s just taken her on such a different journey, especially from starting as a military dog handler. So, you know, the way she lives and works with dogs now. when I was on her course, her Cheap Consent Workforce, she organized lots of different webinars us.

Hmm

I’m sure she’s called Louise canine consultancy. I think her

I think, yeah, I think I could, rings a bell.

she did two different webinars for us and she works with. In Scent Work for, for Environment, environmental Project.

Yeah.

dunno that I’ve ever heard anybody more inspiring than her in my life. She, the way, her passion for what she does and the way she imparts her knowledge and everything, scent work for years utterly amazing.

I know who you’re thinking of, I can’t think of her name, it’s something like canine conservation or something, but you can drop me a message with it anyway, but yeah, Sally Gutterid yeah, we may have Sally on, who knows, you have to watch this space. Vicki, thank you so much for joining me on the Yappy Hour.

If people want to get in touch with you, how’s best to, to find you? Yeah, give us your contact details and stuff.

Facebook as Love Your, and my website is www love yours uk. But I’m actually currently in between websites, so it doesn’t look absolute best at the moment, but predominantly I just run local in person group classes. In, you know, like you said, scent work, tracking, trailing, hoopers, life skills because that’s what I love to do.

And you’re down in Cornwall? Where in Cornwall are you?

Well, I am in between St Ives and Helston. So yeah, it’s a fabulous place.

It is, I remember many holidays down in Halston and Falmouth and that, down that way when I was growing up. So Vicki, thank you so much for joining me. And in Installing all your knowledge thoughtful dog training, definitely the way forward. Thank you for joining me on the Yappy Hour today powered by Yapperly and we’ll see you soon.

Thank you. Will do.

 What a fantastic conversation with Vicki Main. Her compassionate approach to training is truly inspiring and I hope you found her insights as valuable as I did. Here are a few key takeaways from today’s chat. Number one. Training for connection, not compliance, shifts the focus from controlling a dog to understanding them.

This mindset creates stronger bonds and better long term outcomes. Number two. Tailoring training and enrichment to a dog’s breed and personality, like scent work, tracking or trailing, can transform their emotional well being and deepen your connection. Number three. Setbacks are all part of the journey and it’s okay to feel frustrated.

Vicki reminded us that progress happens through patience, empathy and celebrating the small wins. Vicki, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and for reminding us that training is about relationships, not just results. And to all our listeners, if you’re looking to deepen your connection with your dog, I encourage you to check out Love Your Paws and follow Vicki on social media for more tips and inspiration.

If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving a review or sharing it with a fellow dog parent. And don’t forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. Of the yappy hour. Thanks for listening and I’ll see you next time.